<p>Thanks, geoffa, for your honesty and for sharing your thoughts and experience with us. Best wishes as you sort through your feelings and thoughts as you make your decision. I sincerely appreciate your service to our country!</p>
<p>Please do not be in such a hurry to assume that West Point has a negative reputation in the regular Army. Geoffa is a Yuk and has had very limited contact with the regular officers and enlisted men. There are lousy officers from OCS, ROTC and West Point, USNA and AFA. That is life. There are Cadets at all of the Academies who do not have ideal or even particularly good leadership skills. But the vast majority develop them. Apparently Geoffa has had some "negative" experiences. It is up to him to determine how to deal with them, move on and grow. There is room for individual leadership approaches at West Point. The thoughtful Cadet will find an approach that best suits their personality. And this DOES happen at West Point. The successful Cadet develops the teflon approach to survival..</p>
<p>The Academies do not offer the typical college experience..that is not their purpose.Alcohol, drugs, and sex are not as commonplace and cadets make it to class on a regular basis. Cadets form lifelong bonds that you are not likely to find frequently at other colleges, and the Cadets have a sense of purpose you will not often find elsewhere. The Cadets I know are well adjusted...perfectly capable of doing their laundry on weekends, shopping for and preparing their dinner on grills outside. They are VERY adept at planning their trips during leave and getting themselves places without help from Mom. They will survive just fine in the real Army. </p>
<p>As to alcoholoism...this is a long time problem in all branches, Academy grads, ROTC and OCS officers, and enlisted men. It is the nature of the beast and the military is taking a more active effort to identify the problem and deal with it.</p>
<p>It is frequently said that Cadet complaining is on the level of a varsity sport. No one does it better than Cadets and Midshipman from all of the Academies. The dissatisfaction of YUKS at West Point is well known within the community. In fact, the term "it sucks" is probably the most commonly repeated phase to cross their lips. That is life and they grow out of it. This experience is not for everyone and many move on. But many more stay the course and become honorable and talented members of the military.</p>
<p>Anyone interested in attending an Academy should visit and speak with the Cadets and Midshipmen. Most will be very honest about their experiences. The candidate will get a taste of the "intangibles" that make attending an Academy so worthwhile.</p>
<p>Darla, thanks for the well wishes. I hope that my words don't seem cynical, just observational.</p>
<p>p-piper, you are right. Everything that I say is being filtered through the people I associate with, as well as myself. The officers and NCO's I have been drawn to have the same reactions as me, therefore most likely the evidence I have is biased. As I have said before, it is only my view. </p>
<p>-If you are at interested in an Academy, go there, visit it, spend the night with a plebe, talk to EVERYONE, and sort out your feelings for yourself.</p>
<p>There will be people all over the spectrum, that you talk to. People like me, who aren't satisfied, and then people that enjoy every minute of it. Neither people are wrong, just different. This college choice is your's, not you friends, parents, or mine. I'm only offering another view, and appreciate that p-piper can offer an intelligent, well thought through rebuttal.</p>
<p>I have read these posts with much interest. Many points cross my mind and I have been unsure what I want to say or how.
I will start with, Good Luck to geoffa. Please take your time in thinking this through. It took a very long time to get in, it sounds as if you are someone we want on our side. Give yourself ample time to decide the end of your path. I am sure you will succeed whatever you choose.</p>
<p>I think the attitudes you are perceiving from the forum responses to your thoughts are not so much condemnations or criticisms but mature voices trying to explain that the grass is always greener and that outside looking is always different than inside looking out. But that shouldnt invalidate your feelings and thoughts and I too welcome your opinions and would like to hear more as you sort this out. Please do not stop sharing.</p>
<p>My cadet is a plebe and we are not military so I know little but have asked a lot. This was not my choice for him. I would not call his time there a honeymoon by any stretch of the imagination. I know grads, old and recent whose response when I tell them my son says WP sucks is yeah, itll suck all four years but then you are glad you stuck it out. I only know of one grad who does not consider ring-knockers an asset to their lives or their careers. I know MANY civilians who wish they had any sort of ring-knocker to ease their careers. I went to college and have no contact with anyone from my time there, which is sad.</p>
<p>I do think the WP view of civilian colleges can seem mighty attractive to cadets. That said, my cadet and his friend visited freshman friends at a large state university a few weekends ago on a spirit pass. They came home saying they could never go to a school like that or live in the dorm situations they saw in one 24 hour period. You want to talk about alcohol & drug issues and lack of maturity - let alone lack of leadership? </p>
<p>My son too has the fear of losing ones self and ones identity at WP. Yet I met many grads as professors last weekend at PPW and all were refreshingly different but still confident and poised.
My sons sponsor is hardly the stereotypical WP leader, yet he has advanced nicely in the Army.</p>
<p>College is very difficult path and one can never be sure they made the right decision, only time will tell. My advice to geoffa is the same as to my son, listen carefully to your gut, then follow that path, regardless of what your head is trying to tell you. You cant go wrong if you trust yourself first.</p>
<p>I'll echo a bit of what WP2010MOM has said since we've just returned from PPW. My son is having an amazing time at West Point. It's not a stroll down the yellow brick road, and certainly he's had to deal with some jerks, but for the most part he's had nothing but the utmost praise for his PL’s, TAC’s, and for the upper classmen in general. </p>
<p>When he left for Beast I suggested he pay close attention to the various leadership styles, I told him that they would vary in quality from excellent to abysmal, and I urged him to remember that when it’s his turn to lead to take his lessons from the best. He’s had many exceptional role models and I’m glad to say that at least in his experience poor leaders are very few and far between.</p>
<p>Through his sports activities my son’s also had several opportunities to interact with students from other colleges, including those of the Ivy League. When I asked him if they’re basically the same as he and his fellow West Pointers his response was, “They are nothing like us”. His tone suggested he had made the best choice possible for himself and that he was very grateful to be where he is. Of course he flees WP like a convict escaping Sing Sing every opportunity he gets.</p>
<p>All that being said, Geoffa’s experiences have been very different. While there’s a lot you can do to make or break your experience at West Point clearly not everything is in your control. But still there’s hope for those who stay. My understanding is that as you progress in years and experience you are in a better position to apply your own leadership style; the cadets run West Point to a fairly large extent and your time to make your mark is in your final two years.</p>
<p>Whatever you decide Geoffa, the best of luck and great success to you.</p>
<p>"The 2 from ROTC had a genuinly good relationship with their men. I asked a few of the Spec-4's and NCO's what the thought of these two, and they said that they were great guys, and loved being under them. They messed up on land nav or had flaws otherwise, but as a person, they were great."</p>
<p>Think about that statement, and then ask yourself whether you want them leading you in harms way. I think you will find some bad leaders in all areas of the army, business, religion, everywhere. I dont think WP is worried as much about making an officer that the troops will think of as a "great person" as much as they are making sure that officer can navigate his/her troops across a battlefield and in one piece.</p>
<p>West point isn't for everyone, and may not be for every one of those who makes it through all four years. Such is life.</p>
<p>Shogun, Thanks for the different point of view.</p>
<p>This has been a great thread with a lot of give and take.</p>
<p>Here's my stupid question for the day: What's a ring-knocker?</p>
<p>"Ring Knocker": A commissioned nonreservist officer in the U.S. armed forces who is a graduate of one of the three U.S. military academies, especially West Point.</p>
<p>For those who might not know, the tradition of a college ring was begun at West Point and like so many other things was imitated by other colleges thereafter.</p>
<p>shogun: Thanks for the response. I personally have struggled withy the give and take of personal relationships versus training quality. I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. The way I phrased the statement was misleading, and I apologize. What I meant to say was that ROTC graduates are not flawless by any means. After graduation, both ROTC and WP graduates go through the exact same training. I the case of the PL's BOLC, IOBC, and Ranger school (one of the West Pointers, however failed out of the latter). Both WP graduates and ROTC grads seemed to have equal tactical knowledge, that is to say still trying to understand the basics and working out their leadership mold (a PL's job is to learn for the first few months from his PSG and NCO's, in my opinion). The leadership mold taken by the two groups was quite different. the Wet Pointers ran their units like Beast Barracks (yelling, hazing, etc...), after all, that is the leadership style they were used to emulating. The ROTC officers, since they never had the experience of hazing, treated their soldiers like adults. The response from the two groups was essentially polarized. Imagine this: you are a PFC who just returned from Iraq. You receive a new PL who comes in and tells you how to fight in combat and then yells at you when you politely disagree. When you do legitimately get jacked up, rather than solving the problem discreetly and efficiently, you haze him like he is a plebe. On the other hand, a new Pl comes into a unit where 80% of the men have a combat deployment under their belt, and you've been through the mean training grounds of Benning. You take knowledge from them, accept certain changes that weren't taught to you in OBC, drive on. If some one is jacked up, fix them, but do it in a manner that is professional. Like it or not, the Army is a profession. Just because it isn't at a desk with a tie, doesn't mean your employees are any less human. I heard a statement from another cadet today at the football game, "I respect H-2's chainof command because they are willing to sacrfice morale for room standards." There's something wrong there.</p>
<p>To the other parents that commented on visiting their cadets over PPW. I remember my PPW. It was one of the best weekends of my first year. I had similar sentiments as them. I was fired up and proud to be a cadet. Keep reminding them why their there, and why they want to fight. Don't let the jerks keep them down. Everyone is wired different, and I think I'm a three-prong for a two-prong outlet, right now!</p>
<p>"My biggest concern about my son attending a service academy has been that he won't have the true college experience."</p>
<p>I think that concern is shared by all academy parents, particularly those with their kids at West Point. My wife and I looked at it this way:</p>
<p>Our daughter has chosen the military as her profession. While it would have been more "fun" of course for her to take the civilian college route, we also agreed with her that if her choice is a lifetime with the Army, she was probably better off attending the school that would best prepare her, not for just the technical knowledge she would need but also the school that would get in her face emotionally and physically---to harden her so to speak for the challenges ahead. She knows what she gave up, her older brother spend the last 4 years whooping it up at USC (while they ruled the college football world) in a frat house as he earned his business degree. She also doesn't miss too many opportunities to complain about something at West Point---but then again, when we ask her about this complaint or that complaint she usually responds, "hey complaining is what cadets are supposed to do". A different world, preparing our sons and daughters to deal with things most of the rest of us don't have a clue about.
God bless 'em!</p>
<p>I would agree with shogun, for the most part. It is true that it is much better to skip the wild party stage that most college students go through their first two years. In talking with my friends, they seem to be getting burnt out on the party scene at schools (some would call it maturing!). However, I think that that "toughness" is what makes us either enviable or disliked. Ever since the inception of WP, there have been advocates against the idea of a military academy. That being said, the military world is different than the nonmilitary world. Coming back for breaks, I would be driving around with friends, and I would tell them where to go. After we got out of the car, they said things like, "thanks captain america!" or "someones a soldier". The military changes things we don't even think about...I was apparantly giving directions in a very direct, authoritative voice; the type an NCO has. Most people in the civilian world have mixed responses to this. Once again, everything depends on the end result you wish to acheive. Shogun's son had a great time at USC while his daughter is succeeding here at WP. Neither is better or worse, just different...America needs businessmen, too.</p>
<p>All, MPCPTUMSA02 from Iraq here--going to be brief and to the point cause I'm short on time--it's busy everyday. Let me address a couple of issues:
a- USMA and the Army are what you make of it--your reputation upon graduation from either will be based on what YOU did with what you learned from your institution of commissioning and how YOU are as a leader--the USMA stigma, though sometimes joked about, is not as prevelant as one may think. Leaders are leaders are leaders...be a good leader and you'll be respected and lead your troops to victory, be a bad leader and they'll associate everything about you with bad leadership, regardless of where you earned your butter bar.</p>
<p>b- Not going to discuss ROTC- I didn't do it. Let me tell you, I led a platoon in combat, now I'm here again as a CPT and will most likely be back for time #3 as a company commander, and the lessons I learned at USMA were INVALUABLE to my ability to tackle the things I've had to up to this point. I wouldn't trade it for the world.</p>
<p>Again--everything about USMA and the Army right now are what you make out of it. The Army needs good leaders, if your desire is for tough, challenging leadership opportunities, with patriotism at the depth of your heart and the willingness to face the danger that is out there for your Country and for that Soldier beside you...then come and join us! </p>
<p>There is nothing I'd rather do, and the foundation for success was poured at USMA, of that I have no doubt.</p>
<p>geoff,</p>
<p>I appreciate your thoughtful and insightful posts. You seem to have come to your decision, not as a knee-jerk reaction to a difficult situation, but as a logical conclusion for yourself. However, I would like to point out that at times, I sensed that you may have set unrealistic expectations about the West Point experience. </p>
<p>Because of your background, you think you should have known what to expect. But we have heard so many times, from our own cadets, their friends, and the cadets who post here that no one other than a cadet can really understand WP.</p>
<p>If a WP alum fails out of Ranger School, it is not a reflection on West Point and their leadership training model. The individual could not pass. And surely there are Ranger candidates entering the selection process from other sources who fail.</p>
<p>Businesses around the world are looking for talented leaders. Each and every day I hear about individuals who " just don't have the leadership skills" to move on to a higher level at work. Each time we go to the marketplace to search for a managerdirector/vice president, we want somebody with "proven leadership skills". Then, these brilliant people can't really tell me what they mean by it. So much has been written about leadership over the years. I won't try to define it here, but I think that an analytical, logical, sensitive individual who understands that leadership isn't about yelling, is the same person who will develop into an excellent leader someday. And the military needs leaders who have learned to be at their best when the circumstances are the worst.</p>
<p>Geoff, for purely selfish reasons I hope that you reconsider. I'd love to see our military leaders be as thoughtful as you are. I wish you all the best as you finalize your decision. Please keep us up to date as the discussion you have generated resonates with many here. Good luck!</p>
<p>MPCPTUSMA02,</p>
<p>Thanks for weighing in on this subject. You always add such excellent insight and I, for one, wish you had a bit more time to keep us posted. Be safe.</p>
<p>I would agree with MPCPTUSM02. He values the lessons he received from here, and I respect him for that. Obviously he has much more perspective on this issue than I could ever have at this point, and I will take his advice and reccomendations to heart, just like every other educated opinion I have received. Each person is going to have their own interpretation of the situations WP places them in. </p>
<p>momoftwins, thanks for your advice as well. Your response is essentially the same I received from my american politics professor. I brought the same comments, confessions, and complaints to him, as I have brought to this forum. He suggested that I look into a career in the Special Forces community. His major point was that the leeway I desire, my personal leadership style, my current major/focus (double major of Int'l Relations and Spanish, with a track in Nuclear Engineering), and my current wishes for a career are met in the SF community. He was in a recon unit in both of his deployments to Iraq, as such he had extensive interaction with the SF ODA's stationed in Iraq. I took it as a great compliment that he thought this would be fitting for me. He also suggested that I hold off on applying to schools because if I was accepted, there might be reasons for quitting that should not deermine my decision (ie: "think of all the parties", "I wouldn't have to be marching right now", etc.). </p>
<p>I'd like to thank all of you who have taken time to comment on this board. You all have provided advice that previously I would not have considered. Thanks.</p>
<p>geoffa, are you from little rock, arkansas?</p>
<p>no, I'm from all over. I graduated high school in northern virginia, but live in cape cod, now.</p>
<p>Geoff: I hope you'll reconsider too. Everything you say makes sense but trust me it's no different in the corporate world. I've worked with and for good people and for people who I don't trust at all. My impression from my yuk son is that a lot depends upon what company you're in. I know it's difficult but maybe you could find an excuse to move to a different company. I think there's a chance you'll get scrambled next year anyway. Or why not get involved in some activity that is extremely challenging that is all about teamwork - parachuting, for instance. My impression is that the real camaraderie is within the sports/activities. My son likes to party but he actually said to me that one night at a civilian college is enough - he'd rather get back and study for the other day/night. </p>
<p>Other suggestion - I've seen other blogs where people who left West Point posted their regrets - that it was the biggest mistake of their life. Not true in all cases, but why don't you try to get in touch with a few before you make a final decision.</p>
<p>Good luck in whatever you do!</p>
<p>Geoffa: </p>
<p>Good site to take a look at.</p>