Information On IB Program

Parents Forum
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<p>As a teacher who taught IB courses (see subsequent paragraphs), I think Scarletleavy's comments are spot on. The program is not, in my opinion, meant for ALL students. It can be exceptionally rewarding and challenging for those who are willing to expend considerable time and energy. It all comes down to knowing yourself and whether you are genuniely prepared to make the commitment.</p>

<p>Having said this, I also believe that a solid, "well-rounded" education is something that can be developed over a long period of time. I don't believe it's a one-time shot: the IB or nothing. Some of my students seemed to think that unless they took the full dose, there would be a black hole in their lives forever or that somehow, they would fall a step behind their peers as they marched toward IB glory.</p>

<p>Some background:
For two years, I taught IB Math Studies (the lowest level math) as well as the Business/Management (SL) course, at an international school in Japan. All of my students were non native English speakers: Koreans, Japanese, Southeast Asian. All were "coerced" into the IB program (either at the certificate or full diploma level) by being told that while the school offered a "regular" high school diploma, college admissions officers would construe this as the path of least resistance - bye bye Harvard, hello skid row.</p>

<p>Of the students I taught, virtually all wanted to attend a US university after graduation. (Of thirty seniors, more than 24 ended up at some US college; a handful enrolled at Japanese universities, and others at Canadian or European universities. </p>

<p>More background:</p>

<p>All students in the IB program are required to select three courses at the Higher Level (HL) and three at the standard level (SL). In addition, they must write an extended essay (EE) and something on the Theory of Knowledge (TOK). Beyond the academics, students must perform X hours of community service (CAS).</p>

<p>Final piece of background information:</p>

<p>At my school, a number of IB teachers were intensely driven by the test scores. The kids take IB exams in May; results are published in late July or early August. Such results allowed for many comparisons: Teacher A could compare her results against Teacher B at the same school; against Teacher C at another school in Japan, and of course, against the world wide average.</p>

<p>For many, the test results were a public record of teacher performance. Egos hanging on the clothesline.</p>

<p>Small wonder then that the HL English teacher, in order to get maximum scores the following summer, would assign 150 hours of homework per week. Ditto the HL biology and HL Japanese teachers. To survive, a student had to learn quickly, how to compress 450 hours into 165. </p>

<p>I realize there are 168 hours in a week. The remaining three hours were to be allocated to the three required SL courses.</p>

<p>I thought about something called "elastic modulus" (EM), which tries to quantify how different solids react to the application of force. Something having a large EM is very stiff and difficult to deform externally. Most of my students had just enough EM to get through but I've often wondered about
internal deformation.</p>

<p>I should also say upfront I had to "carry" the vast majority across the finish line otherwise they wouldn't have earned the bare minimum scores they did. </p>

<p>I believe most my students should not have been in the IB program.
(It's nearly 230am in my part of the world; I fear I begin to ramble)</p>

<p>In Math Studies, the students were required to write some sort of paper illustrating the application of math to the real world. It is designed as an open ended project,( accounting for twenty percent of the overall grade,) and indeed, students themselves were to come up with a project.</p>

<p>( I always wondered: why are the "least able" math students required to undertake an open ended project while the more advanced students undertook a structured, teacher-directed project?)</p>

<p>Here are some project ideas I received over a two year period: </p>

<p>a) take light bulbs made by different manufacturers and see which one burns out first and hence test the hypothesis that Acme's bulbs last longer/ shorter than Dimwits.</p>

<p>b) test the hypothesis that pink is the favorite color among second grade girls</p>

<p>c) determine whether most crimes in Japan are committed by men or women.</p>

<p>I could continue for a few more paragraphs but I think the reader gets the drift. </p>

<p>Imagine the overall picture: non native speaker (hence, non native writer and reader!), grappling with 150 hours of Shakesperean English. 150 hours of biology and 150 hours of Japanese. </p>

<p>My classes had to be "tucked in" in the remaining three hours of the week!</p>

<p>(I exaggerate the number of hours but not by much. While a native English speaker can read some text in say three or four hours, that same text might take a Korean student 15 or more hours. A native English speaker might write an essay in three hours; Korean student = 15 hours.</p>

<p>This is getting long. I'm sorry if I've violated some etiquette regarding message length. It's nearly two in the morning as I write so I may not have been as clear as I would like. I just wanted to share what <em>I</em> experienced, at <em>one</em> school, with <em>one</em> group (lower group) of kids. </p>

<p>I really enjoyed my students. More than anything, I wanted each of them to find and to use their gifts in kind, loving way. I never believed that the degrees of freedom in a chi square distribution to be the most important thing in life. My students already knew this.</p>

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<p>To the OP: here's a report specifically about Broward County IB schools (i.e. Deerfield Beach and Boyd Anderson):
<a href="http://www.broward.k12.fl.us/research_evaluation/Evaluations/IBPEvalreport.PDF%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.broward.k12.fl.us/research_evaluation/Evaluations/IBPEvalreport.PDF&lt;/a>
Theres a lot of information specific to those IB programs; what may be particularly useful are the survey responses near the end.</p>

<p>BTW I graduated from another Florida IB school last year, so if you have any questions, feel free to ask me.</p>

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<p>heydad</p>

<p>one of the languages the students were taking should have been their native language, and their second language could have been a B language, there's no extra benefit of a bilingual diploma, except it looks cool to say you got it, but generally those are only people who are fluent in multiple languages.</p>

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<p>IB, Kept our kid sorta occupied and out of trouble. He wishes that he could have done bit more exploring of other subjects. He already had an inquistive nature and IB was sometimes too restrictive on him and on his teachers.</p>

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<p>Soccerguy315 - I'm sorry I don't know the details of the language requirements. I had my hands full trying to comprehend the Math Studies (SL) and Business/Management (SL) requirements.</p>

<p>Please allow me to underscore in the strongest possible terms that my direct experience with the program was under a specific set of circumstances. My experience, impressions and opinions might be radically different had I taught the courses in California, Maine or Belgium. While the syllabus remains the same around the world, I believe there can be substantial differences in how the syllabus is "delivered". From snippets I've gleaned here and there, it seems there are widely varying school polices regarding the program. At some schools, for example, the program may be genuinely optional; at others, it's Hobson's choice. In between, I believe there are some schools where the program is "by invitation only". </p>

<p>I'm sure I wrote this earlier but: the program can be a marvelous learning experience for students who are very academically inclined and motivated. This may sound off the wall, but I think it would be a perfect fit for a student who eventually ends up at Reed College - an extremely demanding LAC in Portland, Oregon. (This is not to suggest that those who do well in the IB program can fit ONLY at Reed. I'm sure most US colleges and universities would welcome HS students who perform exceptionally in the IB program; no doubt, such students have gone on to many fine universities other than Reed.)</p>

<p>On the other side of the coin, I believe there are many students for whom the program does not represent a good fit. These are the students who dream of becoming the next super star fashion designer or of running their own flower delivery business. I didn't see how a rigorous academic program would help them realize their dreams.</p>

<p>Somewhere along the line, I felt these students should have sat down with their parents, teachers, advisors and school counselor to define a goal, forge a map and a plan showing how to get from point A to point B.</p>

<p>I don't know whether this ever happened nor if it did, whether parents, themselves non-English speakers, understood what was said to them.</p>

<p>At the end of the day, I saw too many students experience too much stress, for an extended period of time, for reasons that seemed to make no sense. I left school each day, shaking my head, trying to understand the things I observed over the previous eight hours. Things just didn't add up.</p>

<p>Over time, I was able to connect with some students and did as much as I could to help them understand what they were trying to accomplish.
For example, one of my students wanted to study at the Art Institute of Chicago. </p>

<p>I asked her: "is the IB program required or recommended in order to gain admission there? " (Ans: no). "Would the admissions committee look favorably upon those who do?" (Not sure of the answer to this one). What do you think would be the most important factor considered by the admissions committee? (Ans: I think it would be a portfolio of past work that students were required to submit.)</p>

<p>(Note: I have no clue how any admissions committee makes its decisions but I couldn't imagine an art school caring whether a student could tell you the number of significant figures in the number 0.057010 (ans: 5)</p>

<p>I suggested that she drop the IB program and channel her energy into creating a portfolio that would increase her chances of admission. She took my advice and was subsequently accepted to the Art Institute of Chicago. </p>

<p>Sorry if I begin to ramble again. I'm just writing off the top of my head.</p>

<p>I don't mean to discourage students from taking the IB. It can be a fantastic experience. I only suggest that students and all parties concerned ask themselves: what is the goal? what is the best way to get "there" from here? Does the route go through IB terrain? </p>

<p>If so, then go for it; otherwise, pour your talent and energy into a brilliant portfolio!</p>

<p>Good Luck!</p>

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<p>

Absolutely. I agree that for those who are not it may not be the best option.</p>

<p>Excellent post, by the way.</p>

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<p>Written by thisyearsgirl:</p>

<p>"I'm only a first-term junior, so I'm not in a position to evaluate, but there is definitely a love/hate relationship. On one hand, the education is rewarding... on the other, well, it's nearly two AM, I've an English commentary due tomorrow, and I can't remember the last time I got a good night's sleep."</p>

<p>I assume you are a native speaker, reader and writer of English. My students were "pure" Asian: Japanese, Chinese, Korean, Sri Lankan. To read the IB material, they had to use electronic dictionaries. looking up nearly every tenth word. Imagine the time required to get through one paragraph of English, history or business management. ("brand equity" in Korean or Japanese anyone?)</p>

<p>To compose a one page English commentary could easily absorb numerous hours.</p>

<p>As an "imagination exercise", try this: imagine everything in the IB being based on Japanese, for example. Imagine how much time would be required for an English speaker to translate pages of complex kanji characters; imagine having to write a one page commentary in Japanese. </p>

<p>Did someone say "sleep"?</p>

<p>This is why I keep coming back to the issue of "fit" and "does it make sense?" </p>

<p>I believe there are many students around the world who are happy doing the IB; I also believe there are just as many who are happy NOT to be doing the IB. The least pleased are those who are doing the IB and absolutely hating everything about it. For this subset, I wonder about the impact on motivation and desire for sustained, long term learning. I wondered whether some in this group would be better off moving in the direction of their dreams?</p>

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<p>heydad: You make some excellent points here; The IB curriculum and requirements are definitely not for everybody. Our high school does, in fact, require that the student and his or her parents meet with the director and advisor of the IB program to discuss individual goals and plans, etc. And before anyone ever signs a contract, the IB director holds several group meetings as well--specifically to talk about the kinds of issues you make. And every year, she also puts together a panel, with former students who went through the IB program (and who are now in college) to talk about their experiences, then and now, and to answer specific questions from students and parents. That sort of preparation really does help "weed out" those for whom IB would not be appropriate. And I do think the IB program requires a lot of self-motivation, for sure.<br>
And, though this may have already been mentioned, some IB programs are really well-rounded, offering an equal number of options in the humanities and hard sciences, while others seem to be top-heavy in one or the other. So...for the OP, or any student, I would suggest looking very carefully at the specific IB program at any high school. While the diploma requirements are the same, the offerings may vary greatly.</p>

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<p>heydad: My first language is Swedish; my second language is French. I'm flattered that you would think otherwise. </p>

<p>I'm in the bilingual diploma with a course list that includes English A1 HL and French A1 HL. I've lived in the United States for four years now, so I do have that advantage, but last time I spoke French on a day-to-day basis was in 1998.</p>

<p>I agree with you that the IB certainly isn't for everyone, in the same way that most eighth graders' bedside reading doesn't include The Elements of Style*... but for a student who is up to the challenge it can be an amazing experience.</p>

<p>One of my first American progress reports read "____ writes wonderful stories, but she needs to work on grammar". I, well, *worked on grammar. I understand that this approach wouldn't be suitable for everyone. :)</p>

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<p>Jack: it sounds like the good folks at your school do an exemplary job "laying out the terrain" for those who are considering the IB route. Where I taught, I knew ONLY that there was some evening in the spring of a student's sophomore year, when students, parents and advisors came together to receive information about the journey ahead: what equipment to pack, what clothes to wear etc....Though it was easy to learn the details (date, time, location) of when the meeting would occur, it was also made clear that teachers were allowed to attend by INVITATION ONLY. Clearly, there was no space for a person like me who would have strongly urged slow and patient reflection, who would have asked students to ask themselves: "does it make sense for <em>me</em>?" </p>

<p>In the weeks that followed, I asked a number of my students about THE meeting. With no exceptions, the students came away with two impressions: 1) the IB was a prestigious and challenging program (which it is); 2) NOT doing the IB would torpedo any chance of getting into a "good" university. A "regular" HS certificate led ONLY to Mickey D's.</p>

<p>Kids and parents (esp those of Asian descent) accepted this "truth" espoused by a distinguished looking, wise, elder who spoke with an "elegant" accent. </p>

<p>Every year without fail, every student who attended this informational meeting signed on the dotted line.</p>

<p>Somewhere in the Great Database of IB Stats, this guy must have had a lifetime batting average over 1.000 (extra points being given for hitting enrollment targets x years in a row).</p>

<p>I believe that the way the meeting was handled reflected the culture of the school where I taught. It reflected HOW things got done, WHAT messages were communicated and HOW they are communicated etc. In turn, school culture influenced how the IB program was "delivered" and how it was experienced by those who embarked on the journey. </p>

<p>You're absolutely correct in urging students and parents to think about the IB program at the most specific, "local" level. In other words, rather than thinking about the IB from a big picture, "macro" perspective, it's much more important to see how the program is run at school XYZ located three blocks down the road.</p>

<p>In the end, I think the fundamental question remains: is this right for me, given my background, aspirations and goals? If not the IB, then what options do I have? Is Mickey D truly the ONLY alternative?</p>

<p>Thx for reading.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
While the diploma requirements are the same, the offerings may vary greatly.

[/quote]

That isn't necessarily true. At some schools (not mine, though) English HL is a requirement, and sometimes History HL as well, I think.</p>

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<p>As for self-selection (sorry about the multiple posts!) I think the fact that my school offers the full (k-12) IB program makes the transition much easier. Either the students get used to the IB mindset early on, or they leave the school because the program isn't right for them. It's a shame that "pre-IB" isn't more widely offered--it lowers the stakes and reduces the amount of "culture shock".</p>

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<p>thisyearsgirl: I've always been astonished by, among many other things, the linguistic capabilities of many European students! Native Swedish plus Finnish, Hungarian, English, Russian, Chinese and a smattering of Italian thrown in for good measure! (okay, okay, I exaggerate a bit!) I admire the considerable effort and hard work you must have expended to master several languages and no doubt, all of this will hold you in good stead for many years to come. For students such as yourself, the IB must be akin to a Sunday school picnic!</p>

<p>On this side of the world, it seems Asians, by and large, are less linguistically talented than Europeans. That's probably a stupid statement and I don't mean to suggest that Asians are inherently less able when it comes to foreign languages. Rather, I want to convey that for many in Japan, ordering a cup of coffee in English is a Herculean task despite many years of compulsory English training. I would guess that many people around me know the difference between participles and gerunds, and on and on. Very few, however, can order coffee (in English) without experiencing severe hypoxia. This is not to say that ALL Asian students are linguisticallly limited but rather, compared to European students, Asians struggle mightily with the language demands of the IB, on top of the content demands.</p>

<p>Given your linguistic strengths, you could probably pull this off but imagine doing everything in Japanese. What do you think it would be like?</p>

<p>I'm a native English speaker and I would probably have struggled with the IB in English. Being one of the dimmer bulbs, I would never have made it in Japanese. I would only have hoped I had sufficient self awareness to know that I was destined for McDonald's.</p>

<p>thisyearsgirl - I'm sure you will be continue to be very successful in all of your endeavors. Perhaps you can use your multiple skills to work in diplomacy to solve problems that are worth solving. I'm sure the diploma program represents a superb fit. I look forward to reading about you and the good work you can do!</p>

<p>Best Wishes!</p>

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<p>heydad,</p>

<p>You are too kind... :)</p>

<p>On the subject of Asians and languages--having to learn a new alphabet must make learning a language much more difficult. The European languages borrow heavily from each other (there are French words in English and English words in French... not so much Swedish, but there are other similarities), and many of them are similar in structure. I could probably get through the IB in French--probably!--but yes, Japanese would be a challenge.</p>

<p>Off-topic--both my parents are diplomats, and with my background I do seem like a natural candidate... but alas, I'm much more interested in chemistry and literature than politics. I guess some things don't run in the family. :D</p>

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<p>heydad: Yes, the school really does do a good job with ensuring every student interested knows what's involved--right down to having a conversation, yet again, with the student and parents before literally signing on that dotted line. I don't think they like for anyone to get into it, then realizing it's not for them, to have to drop out. Of the kids who go through the program and finish, I think they are all happy they did so. It's usually a small group, too, 50 students at most (out of a class of about 500). Through the experience, they really bond, too.</p>

<p>thisyearsgirl: That's wonderful about the entire k-12 IB program, which would definitely provide an incredible education and way of learning-- from early on. I'm also interested that the diploma requirements are not the same everywhere--that some schools require specific HL's. I don't think our's does; as I remember, the number of required higher levels was, of course, the same, but I think each student had a choice there. (I think.) Anyway..your school sounds very impressive.</p>

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<p>jack: My school is a small private school completely dedicated to the IB program, and yes, it is pretty amazing. I'm there thanks to the Swedish foreign ministry's generosity towards its employees (the Swedish government pays my tuition, as it were). I've been incredibly lucky in that sense... most people don't have that opportunity.</p>

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<p>thisyearsgirl: dollars to donuts that somewhere in the world of diplomacy, there is a need for a person with signal linguistic skills, coupled with deep knowledge of chemistry, physics and biology. It would be nice if this person could also discuss Shakespeare in the evenings.</p>

<p>I'll read about you and you can tell me how you used your knowledge of chemical kinetics to defuse a potentially noxious diplomatic situation arising from a set of reactants. What was the value of k under different circumstances?</p>

<p>After a bit, all of this stuff about the IB leads me back to:"... a tale, told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."</p>

<p>Good Luck! Buena Suerte! Bonne chance (?) (Okay, okay, I got a "2" in French SL.)</p>

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<p>lol heydad! "Bonne chance" is right, so no worries. :)</p>

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<p>heydad: I don't think your experience teaching IB is typical at all. I attend an international school in Korea that offers IB (in my grade something like 68/80 kids are enrolled in the FULL diploma) and the students are probably 60% Korean and 75% Asian and we do fine on the IB. We certainly don't spend all of our waking hours on homework. It's too bad the students you taught struggled so much with the workload.. I agree with you that they probably did not belong in the IB program.</p>

<p>As thisyearsgirl pointed out, it is difficult for Asians to learn English because of the different alphabets, syntax, and grammar. Korean and Japanese are very similar and many Koreans/Japanese speak both. ~50% of Korean is based off of Chinese characters, again making it easier to learn.</p>

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<p>m_c: I tried to convey that what I experienced was what <em>I personally</em> experienced. There may be very little congruence between my experience and those of other IB teachers.</p>

<p>Bear in mind that I had the Math Studies kids and while I loved them dearly, I didn't think by and large, they had the drive, ability, maturity and self discipline of students in Math Methods ( think of this as "Intermediate Level" Math) or Math HL (Higher Level).</p>

<p>I don't have the numbers in front of me and I cannot swear to their accuracy but: the HL kids at my school averaged in the high 30s or low 40s (out of a possible 45(?). The kids who were took the intermediate level math course averaged around the mid 30s. The kids in Math Studies averaged very close to 24 - the bare minimum required to earn the diploma. Usually, there were one or two students ("mine", of course) who earned fewer than 24 points; I don't know what became of them but I believe they were not awarded the diploma.</p>

<p>Again, I cannot go out to two decimal places with these numbers but the demarcation was so strikingly salient.</p>

<p>I am not trying to deprecate the IB program; I've said this before: it can be a robust, very enriching program for a highly motivated student. Nor do I wish to claim that my experiences reflect some sort of "norm". In great likelihood, what I went through was beyond minus 3 sigma. </p>

<p>I hope you and your classmates will earn the condign rewards of many hours of hard work and sacrifice. I hope all of you will go on to solve problems that are worth solving.</p>

<p>Good Luck!</p>