<p>Dear Seunglee,</p>
<p>I feel as if my posts may have carried some people away from your original question about the IB. If this is indeed the case, then I am very sorry. It was never my intent to steer us in this direction.</p>
<p>I do hope, however, that amid the feverish rambling of an undisciplined mind, there can be found little glimmers of something good and valuable.</p>
<p>I wish you the very best in all of your undertakings, whether or not they involve the IB!</p>
<p>My son, a native English speaker, graduated the same school as thisyearsgirl. He has a bilingual IB degree having taken Spanish for 13 years including two or three in total immersion and three or four in half-day immersion. He was able to place into a fifth semester Spanish course when he entered college. </p>
<p>I agree with her that because the school is IB focused from kindergarten the students are well prepared for the rigors of 11th and 12th grade. I think that this is a better educational approach than just taking a diploma in the last two years or a few certificate courses. IB is a philosophy of education, and the longer you are in it the more you can gain from it in terms of developing a young person as a critical thinker with a world view.</p>
<p>Equally as important as the IB is that the school is a true international school with students and teachers from over 90 countries. This really adds to the educational experience especially for the American students. It's why we sent our son there. We believed it was important for for him to be educated with children who saw the world differently than he did and could and would challenge him. It was tough sometimes. Many of the parents of the non-Americans represent their government, some of whom do not agree with US policies. These policies disputes are often played out among the students frequently in a very passionate way. </p>
<p>Being educated with non-Americans and being in that particular school for 13 years gave him a much broader world view than most American youths have. Even though he is a film major in college, the educational experience of his school and the IB has led him to take a minor in peace and conflict studies, and has led him to thoughtful political activism in college. </p>
<p>Unlike children from some of the embassies and the international banks, American parents pay the full fare for their kids to attend this school. We could have sent our son to an excellent Fairfax County VA high school rather than pay the tuition at a school which is now only a few thousand less than what we pay at my sons college. It was worth it though. The school and the 13 years of IB-centered education created the young adult we hoped he would be.</p>
<p>So, here's another question...if a high school offers the IB, and AP classes, which would be the most challenging for the student, (as colleges are wanting students to take the more challenging courses)? Can you take a mixture of classes, IB/AP?<br>
Thanks.</p>
<p>Quopoe, it really depends. If you want to take a mixture, you certainly won't be able to go for the diploma. When I left IB, I remained in IB spanish; since I wasn't going for a diploma, there was no problem.</p>
<p>tsdad - your son, thisyearsgirl and all who attend/have attended the particular school you describe, should consider themselves very fortunate. To be taught by an internationally eclectic faculty, to have classmates from all over the world, to be exposed to an array of Weltanschauung(en) ...a simon-pure IB education indeed!</p>
<p>I hope graduates of this school will go on to fulfill their dreams and to make solid contributions to the communities in which they live. I hope they will go on to great things.</p>
<p>Alas, not all students live in Fairfax county. Some live in the heart of the Blue Ridge mountains, others, amid the wheatfields of western Kansas and still others, in the shadows of oil refineries north of Berkeley, California. For many, a quick run to the local Chinese takeout comprises an international experience.</p>
<p>I hope these students too, will go on to great things and to achieve their dreams.</p>
<p>Let's not forget the many thousands of students who cannot even spell "IB", who will nevertheless bring joy and happiness to the people around them. Think of the current soccer/football sensation - a young Brazilian named Ronaldinho. I don't know whether he took the IB but I am sure he brought and continues to bring unparalleled joy to football fans around the world. Though I know little about soccer/football, I read about the impact George Best had in Ireland (the Republic as well as Northern Ireland). (Best died recently and was buried with full state honors). I don't know whether Best ever earned an IB diploma.</p>
<p>To branch back: the IB can be a robust, very enriching learning experience. It's probably best executed at a school where faculty are drawn from many countries, where students with a staggering array of viewpoints are thrown together for thirteen years. </p>
<p>Not all students have access to this rarefied environment. Those that do should consider themselves exceptionally fortunate; the rest just make the best of what's in front of them. </p>
<p>Somewhere out there, as we read and write, a father is teaching his son to play with only two touches at a time....</p>
<p>heydad: I really enjoyed reading this articulate, eloquent and oh so refreshing (much needed) post. Thanks.</p>
<p>^Seconded.</p>
<p>
[quote]
others, amid the wheatfields of western Kansas
[/quote]
</p>
<p>heydad~</p>
<p>That would be us.....except in south-central KS....and I am so hoping (and kind of expecting) that each of my chilren goes on to do great things, whether on a large scale or a small one.</p>
<p>What a lovely post to help put things in proper perspective! :) </p>
<p>~berurah</p>
<p>I think the IB needs to be demystified. There is nothing in the curricular content that is magic. The instruction and the delivery of the program are only as good as the teachers. Our school happens to have a lot of experienced IB teachers and students who are well prepared to take the IB- so the program is well taught and students do well. This is an international school and the IB program has been in place for a long time. </p>
<p>Students also do well who do not do the full diploma. Each of my sons took a mixture of IB and AP classes. Each sat 7-8 external exams ultimately and did great on all of them. One son took IB Standard Physics and then did a bit of self study and took the AP Physics B exam and got a 5. The other son took the same class and took the IB Standard exam and got a 7. Same class, different tests, great scores. Now I am thinking if the IB instruction or content or whatever was really that different than the AP in this domain, there is truly no way this would have happened.</p>
<p>Another example, son #2 originally took IB Standard Econ. As the course went on he decided he wanted to do IB Higher the next year... and he did. In fact, however, he took the Ap Exams, Micro and Macro and got 5 on each. Again, if there were not a lot of overlay between these classes, if the instructional models had to be that different, then there is no way he could have achieved this or moved easily from Standard to Higher. </p>
<p>The only subject where this was not the case was Spanish- son #1 took HL Spanish but then the AP exam (!) and had a 3 I think...not a great score after so much SPanish...</p>
<p>So, why didn;t they do 'full IB'? Clearly they were capable...a few reasons. They wanted the English teachers who taught the AP sequence. They did not want to take a single science for 3 years (which is how the HL science classes work at our school). They wanted to pick and choose. They took AP English and Calculus...IB classes for nearly everything else, but also a college prep Biology class (the only alternative to the full IB sequences). One of them took TOK as well, he was able to persuade the teacher to let him take it.</p>
<p>Both did plenty of CAS, not because they had to, but because they wanted to. Neither wrote a 4,000 word paper, to my knowledge. But, son #1 did write a very excellent Harry Potter parody in the time that would have taken, and son#2 re-wrote the school's disciplinary code working with the vice principal.</p>
<p>The IB classes might have had a bit less rote, I don;t know. There was no rote learning in AP English or Calculus, I am sure of that. Critical thinking skills should be an end goal for all HS classes. All upper level English students are learning to read analytically and write succinctly, aren't they? </p>
<p>IB is not the be all and end all, even for international kids like my sons. They might have been a bit more 'portable' had they done full IB, but the fact is that the program and the courses offered vary A LOT from school to school- hence the transferability is not what it is meant to be. </p>
<p>To my mind, this is an imposed curricular approach that may or may not suit kids at a time in their lives when their minds are likely to change about things. Do kids of this age really need to be wedded to 2 year curricular commitments? My older son took electronic music and technical theater classes that were infinitely more stimulating to him than doing 3 years of physics would have been (he did 4 years of science in high school). Both boys did 5 or 6 core classes each year..plus TOK for #2. </p>
<p>As for college admissions results, from our school it is a wash. The kids who get into ultracompetitive schools IN THE US are as likely to have done full IB diplomas as a mixture of IB and AP. The one good thing about IB classes, even in the first year of a sequence the grades are weighted, which does make a difference overall for some things in the end...</p>
<p>At our school the kids going to Uni in Europe or Australia need great IB results. The expectations are high and everyone, whether they are going to the US or elsewhere, wants to do well on the IB or AP exams. This reduces senioritis...certainly. </p>
<p>I think "heydad" is right on as he acknowledges that assuming that every kid is well served by a program like this is presuming one can fit a square peg in a round hole. Not only soccer-playing-greats-to-be might find it ill suited to their needs!</p>
<p>i'm so sorry to hear people can't take the exam because it's too expensive, i find this heart-breaking and also disgusting. What kind of worls do we live in that draws line from the minute we are born as to what education we will receive? To be lazy and have money, but not bother to work is one thing, but to have the intelligence, the will and only have money or lack of in the way of one and the diploma is another. Your message has totally inspired me to try and make a change or at least raise money for those in the position described.
Thank you for opening my eyes!!!</p>
<p>french celery, you're right -- the IB exams are very very expensive and many people can't take them. My parents pay about $2000 extra tuition to cover the costs of my exams and whatever else the school deems "related to IB." My classmates and I are very fortunate to have the means to pay this extra tuition.</p>
<p>I think robyrm had a great post. As you said, IB is only as good as the teachers who present the material and the administration who manages the program. We have a mixture at my school. Some teachers are known for being great IB teachers.. e.g. my Physics teacher usually has his students score an average of 6 or higher on the HL exam. Nearly half of my Psych teacher's students scored 7's on the SL exam last year (Psych HL was introduced this year). More than half of the Math Methods kids scored 6's or 7's last year (Math Methods is taught in one year at my school, so many juniors took the exam already). However, there are also SEVERAL teachers who have NEVER been exposed to IB and really don't know what the heck they're talking about. My sister (she's a junior)'s math teacher is new this year and as of December, he's not given them their formula packets yet! He teaches from the perspective of a (very smart) man who took a lot of AP courses in high school. AP and IB courses CANNOT be approached in the same way. Their objectives, curricular and otherwise, are quite different.</p>
<p>Last year, I was selected to be a student rep during a series of meetings our principal and VP/IB Coordinator put together in order to evaluate the effectiveness of the IB program. I learned that one of our school's IB teachers left for one of the top IB schools in the world (I forget the name of the school; I believe it's in Singapore?) where the students were scoring significantly higher on their exams than the students at my school. This teacher returned to our school and told the administration that students at my school do more work than the students in Singapore, yet our IB scores are lower. This signifies a problem with not only the way some teachers approach the curricula, but with how the administration presents the program to its students. It's frustrating for me, a senior in the full diploma program, to realize that I'm handicapped in the IB - I'm not getting as much out of the program as I could - because of administrative/teaching issues within my school. Does this make any sense?</p>
<p>On another note, I believe the IB is unfair in this way --</p>
<p>Scores are obviously taken from all over the world. Yet the score curves (what constitutes as a 5, 6, 7, etc.) vary per continent. As a student in Asia, it is more difficult for me to earn a 7 in ANY IB subject than students in the Americas, Europe, Africa, or Australia. It is also more difficult for me to fail an IB subject due to the nature of the curve, but that's not what I'm concerned about at this point. Apparently it is because IB scores from Asia are consistently, and significantly, higher than scores from other continents, but to impose a more difficult curve on students in Asia because of this sounds absurd to me. Many IB students in Asia are NOT Asian, and many IB students in other continents are. I believe it's unfair that one's score (the difference between a 6 and 7, or 5 and 6) may be determined by one's geographic location. My friend actually had one of her tests re-scored this fall because she plans to attend a UK university and her original score was a 5. The test was re-scored as a 6. IB exams are graded subjectively to begin with -- having different curves for different continents only makes the IB program more so.</p>
<p>m_c</p>
<p>do you have a source for that? I just spent 10 minutes google-ing and the only thing I could find was that there is
[quote]
one set of standards applied equally to all schools and all students.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>i'm pretty sure 40 points on a test will get you the same score regardless of where you live. Otherwise wouldn't that defeat the purpose of the program, to have an internationally standardized education program?</p>
<p>There's a large discussion about grading schemes here: <a href="http://www.ibscrewed.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3744&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=grade+distribution&start=50%5B/url%5D">http://www.ibscrewed.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3744&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=grade+distribution&start=50</a> people from all over the world post on this site, and there's no mention of different scales for different regions</p>
<p>I got the information from my math teacher. She said the IB sends the score breakdowns for each continent to the school (the school pays for this service) every year and she did some crazy stats with it. She loves statistics... she's a brilliant teacher (she tutors kids in Further Mathematics if they take HL as juniors) so I trust her :)</p>
<p>And also, students dont receive the breakdown of their own scores (I only received the whole number.. 5, 6, 7, whatever) so I'm not sure how it'd be possible to compare raw scores.</p>
<p>Hey, I'm a sophomore, and I am going to be enrolling in the IB program. I heard that the program was tedious and required a lot of hard work. About how many hours on average do you do work each night?</p>
<p>soccerguy: I believe in your first post, you said IB students had to study History. That's not true, as it belongs with the same group that offers Economics or Geography. At the high schools I've been to, two offered Econs and History, the third History and Geography. Students have a choice of which to take, if the school offers more than History. And I think it was you who also asked about SAT II's for Bio... There's no right or wrong test for those, if you're taking IB Bio. I chose Bio-E because we had just done Option G (Ecology) in Bio class so it was freshest in my mind. Most people recommend Bio-E, anyway, because to them it's mostly statistics and Bio-M is a lot of "nit-picky" facts.</p>
<p>None of my three high schools (in Vietnam and Romania) have offered AP classes, so I can't state any personal experience with it. </p>
<p>I do believe, though, if you're offered only a high school diploma or the IB Diploma at an international school, it's best to go either with the full IB Diploma or the IB Certificate. Most colleges in the US look at the hardest course available to students and the IB is it here. Students can drop the IB Diploma after the junior year. In fact a senior dropped her 7th IB Subject - Chemistry -after she registered for her exams in May. (Couldn't blame her. She was taking Math HL, A1 Romanian HL, A1 English HL, History HL, Spanish Ab Initio and Biology SL.)</p>
<p>For seniors not taking IB exams, for science and math, they sit in IB classes, do IB homework/portfolios/labs because that's the only class offered at senior level. There's no separate class for "just high school". However, they take the IB exam separately which gets graded by the teacher. I think the transcript shows they took an IB level class, but not an IB student. Not sure how universities look at this. In my eyes, better to take the IB Cert exam if they don't want the whole Diploma. In fact, a senior last year took 5 IB Certificate exams, all at SL except for History.</p>
<p>Most students here who want to attend European universities (for example, Boccoconi - not sure right spelling. It's in Italy or an universities in Romania or Hotel schools in Switzerland) don't do the whole Diploma, though... Unsure why.</p>
<p>IB can be seen as a greater equalizer than the SAT II's (pah!) because its curriculum is set in stone. SAT I and II's leave a lot of guessing space. What if in the middle of your senior year you haven't learnt about whatever it is on the Bio or Chemistry or Math exam?? However, yep, it depends heavily on the teacher and class schedule. My school doesn't even reach the recommended hours for SL courses. Obviously HL students suffer, too, if not more! So comes near late April and we're rushing through options in Chem SL/HL and Bio HL. As for teachers, we've had two French B teachers and the first one was fluffier than the second, who really pushes her students.</p>
<p>Preparation to IB at my high schools have been different. Two of them (this one and the first one in Vietnam) are/were full core IB schools. PYP, MYP to IBD. I think this helps with foreign language, math and the leap from MYP Personal Project to Extended Essay.
Another one was IGCSE (British based external exams) to IB. This, I found, helps with history, English, foreign language and to a certain extent math. The exams (the structure or the requirements like orals) helped IB students get used to having externally graded exams/orals/coureswork, while also enabling them to relax and realize while in the IB program, some coursework which will be moderated is under their control so the grade isn't completely based on exams.</p>
<p>es222: 15-20... but much of that is chemistry. People at my school who don't take chemistry probably have closer to 5-15 hours of work. These are rough estimates, of course.</p>
<p>I complain about the work, but honestly, I don't think it's unreasonable. Most of the workload is essays and labs, not so much busywork.</p>
<p>15 hours of work per day!?!?</p>
<p>Sorry, I misread your post... that should be 15-20 hours per week. <em>embarrassed</em></p>
<p>haha, when I saw 15 hours I was like, how is that humanly possible on a school day? 4-5 hours huh? That sounds attainable.</p>
<p>Keep in mind that it's that for a normal week. it'll go upwards if projects and papers are due (it was when i was taking all AP's...I dont see how it would be any different (unless more pronounced) in IB).</p>