@dadof4kids - we were @ NYU at the same time!! I was in grad school and a teaching assistant.
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Iâm a bit unclear why you are so fixated on this. I have no dog in this fight, I was just pointing out that your example was ridiculous.
Instead of answering your question, let me ask you one. Do you think that it is easier to get an A at a top BS than this hypothetical HS? My guess is that if you do the work and have the knowlege to get a B+ at Choate or Andover or any of the acronym schools, which is what I think we are talking about, there are extremely few HS in the country where you would not have an A or A+. Even if that B+ is not a particulary good grade and puts you in the bottom half of your class, it probably puts you in the 90th percentile of kids in junior English, or AP Chem, or whatever class we are talking about.
Iâm slightly more comfortable saying that about college level work, because I have no first hand experience in elite HSâs. But I think it holds true for HS. When we are looking at colleges, my son took a few classes at a Directional U in our town when he was in HS. He was the only HS kid in the class, in his Econ class it was mostly college juniors and seniors. He got an easy A. At his current T20 school, he works his tail off for Bâs. He would have zero chance of passing if he put in âA caliberâ work at the directional U. I guess not the exact same class, but same kid, multiple classes at both schools. So Iâm comfortable with that statement.
His T20 U has a higher average GPA than the directional U he took classes at while in HS. By your definitlon the T20 school has grade inflation. I guess by some definition it does, but thatâs a really misleading statement. Just like the one you are trying to make here.
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Youâd think it wouldnât matter, as long as there was class rank, or a spread of GPAâs along a continuum. At my kidâs public school, they only give the colleges a bar graph, saying that of the 400 kids, 50 have 4.0 or higher (max 4.4 weighted), 75 have 3.75 to 4.0, and so on. So a college can surmise that a kid with a 4.4 ranks extremely high, a kid with a 4.0 is in the top 15th%, and so on.
So wouldnât you think that the colleges would recognize that a 3.9 at Choate means youâre in the bottom half of the class? As for Deerfield, if the MEAN is 89, isnât that also grade inflation? If the MEAN is a high B+? Interestingly, Deerfield only lists the schools that students matriculated at, not the number who got in. Also interestingly, several kids went to prestigious conservatories. Kind of surprising - I just donât see how a kid could maintain the practice schedule, the high level ensemble work, and have access to the teachers needed to get into conservatory, from that relatively isolated location.
I have nothing to add to whether or not thereâs grade inflation in boarding schools, but my own experience (albeit outdated) with university education is that there certainly can be more grade inflation and a more forgiving classroom experience in an ostensibly top-20 university than in a low-prestige state school. I have degrees from U. Chicago and Cornell, but the lowest grade I ever received in a college class was in a summer biotechnology class at Cleveland State!
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And this is why some here are questioning your understanding of boarding schools.
I think we need to stop beating this dead horse. @skieurope?
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AMEN!!!
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I was an adjunct at a well known Univeristy for one year. To my dismay, I was ordered to change grades for certain students at the college, so that they could keep their scholarships and so the school could keep the $$. My kid will not apply there.
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I had the same experience. Classes at my Ivy were tough - worked my butt off and still sometimes got a B. Spent one year at the âjewel in the crownâ of the CUNY system - and 90% of the students who were there, did not belong in college. Friends told me that was also their experience at flagship state Uâs - that the classes were not challenging, that many of the students were not interested in working.
But thatâs not the point. A school should not be saying that since everyone at the school has already been pre-selected, everyone gets an A. Yes, one certainly has to work harder to get an A at MIT than at community college. And Iâm sure that at horrible inner city high schools with severe behavioral and truancy issues, where many of the students are way below grade level in math and reading, one gets an A for simply attending, handing in work, and not behaving disruptively. But grades in a class are intended to reflect the achievement in that class, RELATIVE TO ONEâS CLASSMATES, not relative to some theoretical national average level. Thatâs what standardized tests are for. And surprisingly, when Choateâs standardized test scores are compared with the top quarter cohort of a racially and socioeconomically diverse public school (the kids who take all honors and AP classes), the standardized test scores are the same. Yet in those public school classes, some of the kids get Aâs, some Bâs, some Câs, some Dâs, and some Fâs. But at Choate, it appears, half the kids get A or higher, and only the bottom 5th% gets a B. That is grade inflation, no matter how you try to excuse it. And the fact that the calculated odds of a valedictorian from a public school getting into a top Ivy, vs those of a student from schools like Choate, seems to be about 1:25, shows bias - and believe you me, it isnât because of difference in class rank, or standardized test scores, or ability. Itâs the old boy network, as demonstrated by the chumminess between prep/private school counselors and admissions officers.
Itâs pretty obvious that racially preferential admissions for URMs, and supposed preference shown for socioeconomically disadvantaged students is just a bone. When you see overall admissions stats like Choateâs, with standardized test scores that are really quite unremarkable, and calculate the odds vs that of public school valedictorians with perfect standardized test scores, itâs quite clear that the old boy network is alive and well.
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One of the first things they they teach you in a legal writing class is that if you have to start a sentence with âitâs quite clearâ it means it isnât.
I am with you for much of what you say, but not this conclusion. The boarding schools I am aware of are quite committed to diversity, and put their money behind it. Maybe, the lower than expected test scores are a function of pulling kids out of background that didnât provide test prep since birth, not the opposite as you propose. And then those kids get into elite colleges because they are, well, elite for other reasons than scores.
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An recent observation from kiddo - about the qualitative difference between public school and private school styles of education. His current math teacher is a stickler on format on homework, and grades down if not done to specifications - showing your work, properly labeling things, etc. He said you could immediately identify the public school kids - they fell into line because they knew the drill. They had been raised to provide form over content. Those who have been raised in private schools are having a super hard time and push back against being required to make their homework look a specific way.
They all are equal in their ability to provide content - it is just that the former public school kids are used to being graded on the more surface level stuff.
Donât get me started on how behind kiddo was on his writing skills because he never had to write anything remotely complex in middle school. I know from talking to parents here that they have the same issue with the public high school. The only one I know who got into an elite hired an outside writing tutor throughout high school.
@parentologist Maybe you should start a new thread specifically about Choate. The grading specifics you keep referring to certainly arenât relative to many other prep schools.
You said you went to an Ivy and your kid got into Harvard from PS, so Iâm also having a hard time understanding your points.
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This is a dumb argument I donât want to be in. I only addressed it because you knew that you were deliberately being obtuse with your example.
So briefly and from me at least on this thread my final comment on the subject: Any T50 LAC or U will be very familiar with what a GPA means from Choate or Deerfield. They will also be very familiar that they are taking minimal risk with a B+ kid from those BSâs being able to do the work, whereas they are taking a risk with a public school kid from an unknown school with an A average (which is where my oldest 3 all went). Standardized test scores are deeply flawed, and I am guessing rapidly on the way out.
But the bottom line is that the B+ Choatie kid is probably more prepared than all but a few of the public school kids. I am sending a PS kid to Amherst in the fall. She was ranked 1/350+, took a bunch of APâs, got a 33 ACT even with the jacked up testing schedule, and did it with an extremely busy EC load. She is as prepared as she could be. And if her roommate is a Choatie with a B+ average, that girl will probably have a smaller adjustment period and easier time transitioning into doing A/B work at Amhest than my D will. Because her A+ work at her LPS is probably less than B+ work at Choate.
If I am a college, that is what I care about. Who is prepared to be successful. So no wonder those kids are overrepresented.
And with that I will bow out and not be drawn into further sidtracking of a useful thread. Apologies to everyone for my part in this.
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You are comparing apples to oranges in comparing the GPAs reported from a public school and those reported from Choate.
At public school, nearly all kids enter at the same point (9th grade) and all were previously 8th graders. At Choate, many (perhaps 1/3 to 1/2) of entering 9th graders are repeating 9th grade, having already done 9th grade at a public or private HS. 10th grade is also a larger entry point into Choate, and many of them are repeating 10th grade. Some very mature students also enter in 11th grade.
At PS, all kids are living at home and experience no life change in moving from 8th to 9th grade. At BS, kids are experiencing tremendous life change as they move from 8th to 9th, 9th to 9th, 9th to 10th, 10th to 10th, etc. They no longer live at home. Nobody tells them to get up, nobody shuttles them around, nobody asks if they did their homework, nobody gives them full credit later if they didnât, etc. Plus, these kids have been completely uprooted from all of their prior relationships, plopped down in a new environment and given no option but to start over. Sure, they chose the path, but itâs disruptive none-the-less.
Lastly, the failure of your GPA argument is that it ignores the fact that college AOs get studentsâ transcripts. They all calculate their own GPAs and it is then obvious that the GPAs at Choate are anything but inflated. But with the transcript in hand and that re-calcutated GPA, the AO can see the full story of that student. That story is not uncommonly one of a kid who never knew anything but As prior to HS, who arrived at Choate and dropped a couple Cs or even Ds. But the beauty of the story is seeing the evolution of that kid to a mature young person by their senior year, who is excelling academically in appropriate classes. And the AOs know that person coming from Choate will find college easy, while many of their tippy-top GPA public school peers struggle.
So, since Choate doesnât rank, the GPAs canât be compared between public school and Choate, and the AOs undoubtedly donât care much about the GPA spread reported, there is no point in dwelling on the GPAs reported for Choate.
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Can we move on from debating grade inflation/deflation/compression please.
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@CateCAParent DS applied to 10 schools. One overseas, two reach, 2 safeties and the rest targets.
T20? IDK â he wasnât interested in many of the so-called T20 because of location or not as strong in engineering. No Ivies â although he was encouraged to do so.
FWIW - his CC was very familiar with kids applying to schools in Europe.
I obviously donât know about Choate repeats but 1/3 to 1/2 of all incoming 9th graders repeating 9th grade seems very high IMO. At our school (less than half the size of Choate) only a couple did that. In 10th grade there is a significant bump but almost all are related to kids leaving a school with 9 grades or simply leaving their other PS or LPS after grade 9 and entering normally as a 10th grader. There are a number of kids repeating grades as they come in but again, most are recruited athletes who want to get another year in their sport to develop.
Getting back to the âinner workingsâ, this is my hunch @ how things work at DA. There is a high percentage of very talented athletes - many with high national rankings. Some of the sports are those appealing to âeliteâ colleges who place value on certain teams that seem to be nurtured at NE boarding schools (lax, squash, crew, hockey). Could it be that the GCâs and advising office know that they will have X number of athletes committed to or applying to certain popular colleges? I have a feeling that is one reason why DA has such harsh grade compression/deflation.
I am just being honest with my disappointment and concern. Yes - even with a 93 + Average at DA, if you are a non-recruited athlete or donât get an offer, it will look weak compared to those student-athletes with lower GPAâs who are recruited. Maybe the GCs are saving spots for athletes to be on the lists for certain schools.
Decades ago (like in the 50âs) a relative of mine was at SPS. He told us that this is the way it was done for hockey back then. At one point the boys in his class were told where they would âfitâ and who was going where. I am not implying this is how it is done now. Just saying, this type of brokering is not new.
Realize I am giving a âgutâ answer, like the person did in the other post, but 1/5 feels right to me.
@cinnamon1212 - to answer your question. Yes. Itâs not good IMO. For a variety of reasons. The Niche standings have plummeted over the past few years, also. They do have this problem - except for top athletes who are recruited. When you review the matriculation lists over the past few years, it is evident that those kids going to HYPS and the âusual suspectsâ on the top 20 lists ,etc are recruited athletes. Here is the story they will not tell youâŠmany students (even strong athletes who wonât be recruited to top schools) are steered toward schools that attract students with much lower preparation for college, lower GPAâs and lower scores. If you want your kid to bust their rear-end for a 93 average with grade-deflated DA, fine. There are many disappointed Honor Roll students who are given a list of suggested colleges that are not those you would expect after thriving at Deerfield.
My youngest son was a recruited athlete. @Golfgr8 the college office had NOTHING â Zero â to do with his recruiting and the colleges he got offers from. Recruiting is college coach driven, full stop. It also usually happens earlier than senior year (when, normally college lists are being finalized). Where the CC came into play was verifying my son really did have an offer and that he would in fact be supported with admissions. And when another school made a late offer and we parents considered decommitting, the CC was able to give us a lot of color and behind the scenes info which was helpful.
I feel like you are kind of going to drive yourself crazy worrying about imagined scenarios that most likely arenât true. I can confidently say that it all works out in the end â even if it means your child attends a âsafetyâ. Your child will be fine, and the college office is not plotting on behalf of some kids but not others. It really will be fine!
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