<p>"Maybe someone whose intellectual curiousity is fed mostly by the dream of making a lot of money someday (be it through business, science, medicine, writing, etc...) or by becoming famous would be the type of person the OP is wondering about."</p>
<p>No, the goal has nothing to do with money. It's about finding like minded peers.</p>
<p>Maybe it doesn't really matter......</p>
<p>Aren't campuses diverse enough to have pockets of intellectually curious kids, as well as career-driven kids? (and, many kids who are mix of both...where their career choice is the result of intellectual curiousity (i.e. marite's son).</p>
<p>How about a change in terminology? Is "academic" rather than "intellectually curious" a better description of what we're trying to talk about here?</p>
<p>Lizchup:</p>
<p>Maybe "intellectually curious" is not the right way to think about the college atmosphere. As a non-nerd, I'd be bored to tears among a group of geeks excited about one of the millennium problems. My intellectual curiosity takes me in different directions from that of my S. Just as he laments my lack of interest in arcane math problems, I regret his uninterest in the humanities. In each other's eyes, we're both philistines.
It is possible that the heavy emphasis on pre-med at your S's school may be a bit much for someone wanting to pursue other interests. That, rather than the pre-meds'' lack of intellectual curiosity may be the matter. While they may get excited by something they find in a petri dish, your S may be more excited by discovering some obscure legal precedent.</p>
<p>I would define intellectual curiosity as learning for learning's sake--not because you've been assigned work or have a test coming up but because you've discovered a subject that has piqued your curiosity and you want to learn more about it. When I was HS sophomore, I was hellbent on proving that you could trisect an angle in geometry class. I'm far from being a math genius, but this quest struck me as being so challenging and fun that I stuck with it the entire year until the teacher told me it had been proven that you couldn't trisect an angle (using compass and proofs).</p>
<p>Here's where I'll go out on a limb: I believe that every person possesses intellectual curiosity of one kind or another, just as every person is talented--provided (s)he has the opportunity to discover that. And that's where education comes in.</p>
<p>What schools provide the environment that nurtures that kind of thinking? I would say that many schools--LACs, universities, pre-professional institutions--aim to do just that. And teachers thrive on havings kids in their classes who possess that quality. Whether that teacher-student dynamic clicks on any given day, who can say? Definitely, in a pre-professional school, students know (or think they know) what career they want to pursue and therefore are more excited about learning information that they can apply.</p>
<p>And I don't think one can equate intellectual curiosity with success. (I would connote success with drive.) Look at the history of inventors whose achievements were not recognized until much later.</p>
<p>And yes, I had much more drive, and intellectual curiosity, in grad. school than as an undergrad, after having discovered my chosen field (at that time) while in the work force for two years.</p>
<p>I thought I understood exactly what Liz was asking. It's not about whether you have a goal or not, it's do you like thinking and learning for their own sake, apart from your goal. So, of course someone like your son, Marite, would be included in that group; I'd have thought that was self-evident.</p>
<p>My D went to a high school with a boy whose aim, since young, was to get rich. He discovered a bent for computer science at the applied level, and went to an Ivy where he could study that. He's now, having graduated in May, living in NY, making as much money as his lawyer father. He, to me, has always epitomized the non-intellectual. Learning was a means for him, not an end.</p>
<p>I feel this when I read a lot of posts by students on this board and others. What's the best way to get into med school, how do I get a job in I-banking, what fields pay the most? And this is not to say that all doctors, bankers, etc, are not interested in learning for its own sake, just that with some kids, that seems clearly to be the case.</p>
<p>(and my D and I, who both transfered out of non-stimulating atmospheres, both would question the pockets-of-likeminded-peers-everywhere theory. It didn't feel that way to either of us.)</p>
<p>I also think this atmosphere can co-exist with major sports programs and frats--see my above comments on Michigan.</p>
<p>So, yeah, I think I get what you're saying, Liz.</p>
<p>I'd be willing to bet you will find academically and intellectually curious students at every college in this country. I recall a very dear friend, one of the most intellectually alive folks I have ever known, forced by circumstances to go to a local low-rated school. She ultimately won a fellowship to graduate school. The cream rises to the top. Of course finding a bunch of like-minded fellow students was tough for her. She tended to hang out with the faculty, in fact. The liberal arts colleges may tend to favor the intellectual bent of the student who seeks to be well-rounded in education, but college is what you make of it, no matter where you go. Just MHO.</p>
<p>Lizschup -- I'm flattered my post about trying to discover a campus culture led you to think about this question -- but, gosh, look at all the trouble you've gotten yourself into!:)
I also don't think the issue is necessarily about being pre-professional, at least not in the sense of someone preparing for for law or medical school, for example. Plenty of the students sitting with my son in the dining hall debating the eixstence of God, for example, will end up as lawyers -- or investment bankers, for that matter. But there is something about what a particular university offers that attracts certain students, or maybe even about what type of student an admissions office looks at, that contributes to the campus culture. As Garland mentioned, a core curriculum that requires every first year student to be reading the same book at the same time means that even standing next to someone at the elevator or sitting down next to a stranger in the dining hall you can fall into a conversation or debate about the Bible, for example. Similarly, a core curriculum that is heavily humanities based may not necessarily going to be an attraction for someone who already knows he or she wants to go into nanotechnology. Then, there is the more difficult to get at issue of the kind of style, for want of a better word, among the student body. Some places it's "cool" to be working furiously but pretending that you're not, while other places it's "cool" to brag about how much slogging you do; some places it's "geeky" to talk about ideas while in other places it's just what you do. Just as the style of social life differs at various places, so does the style of intellectual life.</p>
<p>As the jazz musicians say -- in jazz you dig yourself a hole, then dig yourself out. I know I just dug myself a hole. Not sure I dug myself -- or you -- out.:)</p>
<p>lizschup- "No wonder so many people lurk instead of post. "</p>
<p>You're going to be challenged on posts like this because you're asking parents to separate schools by what you are calling "intellectual curiousity". EVRYONE on here wants their children to be intellectually curious. Once we start to separate schools as being more IC than other schools, you're going to have problems in the thread. It's different when someone asks "what schools are better for engineering (or musical theater, or pharmacy, etc) because those of us who have kids who are not interested in those majors won't feel competitive about where our kids are going if they aren't going to school at those places. But, asking "what schools are more intellectually curious"...whoa.....everyone wants to raise their hand and many will disagree...and you'll be challenged on what you're asking because surely you aren't challenged me (parent) on my child's choices - since he IS, afterall, VERY intellectually curious. :) (speaking for myself...Ivy Mom....who thumbs nose at pre-prof schools - but not those who choose them).</p>
<p>Don't lurk...post...but note that threads where school choices are challenged at such a general level will call for debate.....happens ALL the time on here(as it should!)</p>
<p>Momsdream, I don't think it does matter. Kids bright enough to get into these schools are going to have intellectual discussions from time to time. Many kids at the most intellectual schools will enjoy sports. For the OP, I think it is a question of how large is the school, and what do the students do for fun. I got the distinct impression at Swarthmore that a lot of kids had intellectual discussions for "fun" and by choice. I got the impression that at Williams lots of kids did sports for "fun" and by choice - that doesn't mean intellectual discussions aren't going on there,too, just not the defualt "fun" choice. The size is important because, the bigger the school, the more likely you are to find students in "the other group". Remember that most of the kids at all these schools (even Swat) will end up as lawyers, MDs and businesspeople - Swat will just proportionally have more PhDs</p>
<p>Another thing that influences the "pre-pro" atmosphere that hasn't been discussed here is the amount of merit and to a lesser extent need-based aid. Kids on aid are going to have more internal pressure and more pressure from home to get a high paying career. There is going to be less of a feeling of a safety net. THere will also be less understanding of the fact that you can major in philosophy and still end up as a CEO (that knowledge comes from being at least 2nd generation at these types of schools). I think this explains WUSTL (plus the med school), Rice, Duke. Just some random thoughts.</p>
<p>Sac:
Totally agree with your post!</p>
<p>Marite -- which part? about not digging myself out of the hole?</p>
<p>All students have a mix of motives and motivations for choosing a college. My son -- though "intellectually curious" by almost any reasonable definition -- also wanted to be at a school where the prevailing culture (read: most students) supported the idea of studies being taken seriously, and learning things that one was interested in learning about didn't necessarily involve major practical considerations such as "how will studying this affect my chances at getting into law/med/business/grad school" or "how will taking this course affect my GPA" or "is this subject useful for anything" or "is this required for my major" or even "is this course too hard for me, or will it take too much of my time"? Of course these types of questions are likely to occur with respect to almost any choice of courses, but they don't have to be dominant in every case or even in most. (At the same time, my son also wanted to be in a great city, a major league city, and wasn't interested in being couped up in the library or otherwise on campus 24/7. If he hadn't chosen Chicago, he'd probably have gone into the RC at UMich to find a mix of things he was interested in, including spectator sports.)</p>
<p>Even at Chicago, which several posters above (including myself) have identified as one that might meet lizschup's definition, there are many preprofessionals including quite a few grade grubbers and others who never ventured to take a course that they "don't need" -- that is, never take a course that doesn't serve some other instrumental purpose from the outset. But overall, Chicago is a school in which students take a lot of "impractical" courses and that, IMO, is one of its great appeals.</p>
<p>Beyond this consideration, someone else above suggested that you can tell a lot from the conversations among students on campus. I have my own short-hand way -- my 5-minute test -- for identifying prevailing atmospherics on campus. It involves a trip to the library to listen to conversations and read the grafitti. But more generally, I can say from my own experience that it's pretty clear when a campus has a lot of students who are intellectually engaged in their studies (and not mainly around exam time) and who are not mainly motivated by practical considerations such as those I've mentioned above. I already mentioned, and others echoed the idea, that this can be found in residential and honors colleges at even larger state universities. Still, there is a set of colleges and universities where the emphasis is indeed on thinking and exploring, on research, and where most students get engaged in learning without necessarily making the calculation of its practical value to their own futures. And many of those have been mentioned already on this thread.</p>
<p>Mackinaw -- We used the campus coffee shop test. At U of C (which was also on my son's list) there actually were two students discussing Wittgenstein at the table next to us. And, it didn't seem as if they were studying for an exam -- just that they were continuing a conversation from class.</p>
<p>Cangel-- I emphatically disagree about the first generation phenomenon. In observing my kids friends in high school, the kids most focused on high paying careers were the ones who couldn't imagine not spending winter break in Aspen or playing golf in Naples. Kids like mine (most vacations visiting the grandparents in decidedly unromantic spots!) didn't really have the consciousness that money makes the world go round and if you're not a player you might as well go shop in Walmart. If your daddy is an I-banker and your mommy is a neurosurgeon, life without your toys looks pretty scary at age 17.</p>
<p>To the OP-- I think your question is a good one, and I'm not a big advocate of the "you can find serious students everywhere" method of picking a school. Is it true? Absolutely. Will a serious student have a peer group regardless of where he or she ends up? Maybe not. </p>
<p>Professors and counselors in the career guidance office are good barometers of the "character" of the student body. Some schools churn out Hedge Fund analysts like there's no tomorrow.... and others have students clamoring for tutorials on how to land a job in a museum, foundation, teaching computer skills to the blind, or how to self-publish your first novel. I'd start there....</p>
<p>Little Mother, Garland and Sac,
Thank you for helping me out. I particularly like this sentence from sac, " Just as the style of social life differs at various places, so does the style of intellectual life."</p>
<p>When we visit a college we look at the bookstore to see how much variety, and how much depth there is in subjects we understand because we link the depth and complexity of what the students are asked to read to the depth and complexity of the courses. I'm not sure this relates to IC, but it is a test we use. We have not previously overheard student conversations, but we did notice that many of the student lunches at Cal Tech were accompanied by lots of studying. At some of the UCs lunch was much, much more social. Now that I know, we'll discretely listen for the quality of the student conversations. Thanks Mackinaw and Sac!</p>
<p>Sac: LOL! I did not see any hole.</p>
<p>Interestingly, for the past few months, I've been reading the Daily Pirincetonian, the Yale Daily News and the Harvard Crimson. If one went by what is published in these three papers, one would conclude that the students at HYP are totally unintellectual. Until the Harvard-Yale game, the Crimson and the YDN were consumed with issues surrounding tailgating and beer kegs. The Daily Princetonian's lead article seems to always be about sports. And then, later on in the year, one reads about senior theses on totally abstruse subjects...<br>
At least at P & H, the fact that finals happen after the Christmas break has to have an effect on campus life. As Interesteddad has sometimes pointed out, the real major of lots of Harvard students, whatever their official concentration may be, is ECs, whether this be community service, performing arts or sports. Does that make Harvard (and Yale and Princeton) students less intellectually curious than at some other colleges? Dunno.</p>
<p>I think a very good way to get a grip on the campus culture at a school is to read the Fiske Guide entry. If the school has a prevailing "style" it will usually be noted:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.fiskeguide.com/right/ohcf2.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.fiskeguide.com/right/ohcf2.html</a></p>
<p>Blossom, I'm not talking about preserving vacations in Aspen and I-banking, the situations I'm talking about are more on the order of a doctor or a lawyer being the pinnacle of financial success, and (even more importantly for a blue collar family) job security - these folks have only a vague idea of what an I-banker does. Believe me, because I come from that background, many of these kids have parents who are at home saying why on earth don't you want to finish college in 3 years, and get out working faster, why don't you go year round? The whole notion of a liberal arts education is to some extent against their values (You should hear what my Mom is saying about her granddaughter going to Dartmouth?!).
Many of the kids at DD's school who go skiing every year don't worry about which college because first they don't see the parental gravy train ending and secondly the parental money came after attending local state U often, so why do any differently?</p>