<p>Marite -- I do think student papers are a good way to get a feel for the campus. I read the Spec on line and -- though there is plenty of concern over the performance of the football team (they did have a terrible season), there is a steady stream of articles and opinion pieces on international and national issues. As misguided as some of them are, the overall picture is of a place that takes the world seriously. I was particularly taken, though, by a student writer who claimed to have let five regular columnists of the New York Times fill his space that day -- and included five of the funniest paragraphs individually parodying Safire, Friedman, Kristoff, Klugman, etc. This student had obviously been reading them for years and caught them in all their pretentious pontification. Something about the combination of seriousness and humor in that paper really does reflect the school.</p>
<p>also, how many college newspapers review opera?</p>
<p>Lizchup: "Maybe someone whose intellectual curiousity is fed mostly by the dream of making a lot of money someday (be it through business, science, medicine, writing, etc...) or by becoming famous would be the type of person the OP is wondering about." --- No, the goal has nothing to do with money. It's about finding like minded peers."</p>
<p>Right, that's what I was getting at, but didn't quite make clear. I would say there is a big difference between people whose curiosity is driven by money/fame or ultimate status in the work world and those whose curiosity is driven by, well, the need to know something(s). I think, from your earlier posts, that you are looking for a place for your son that has a majority of the latter. </p>
<p>As for the frats/athletics, I have no doubt there are intellectually curious people on teams and in Greeks. I'm just saying that if a school is really known for its athletics or Greek life or party scene or beach scene or whatever else, it probably isn't going to have a <em>majority</em> of kids whose number one priority is feeding the mind. </p>
<p>And, I totally agree with Sac and Mac about eavesdropping on conversations in student coffee shops. :)</p>
<p>My S fits the bill as being intellectually curious but without a care as to career. i just came to terms with this aspect of his personality this past month! He has been out of H for several years and has not really made much money even though he is in the comp scie field. But he has taught himself Japanese and is now teaching himself Gaelic under the sheets of the bed( so I can't see) when he comes home for the holidays as I get so CRAZED that he gets so engrossed in such bizarre things, but can't do his income taxes!!! or manage to pay his household bills in time!!!! I finally realized this when he asked his father for his grandmother's county of birth in Ireland. She is 95 yrs old and he wrote to her home town to obtain a copy of her birth certificate so he can apply for an IRish passport if he can prove that he is her grandson. THIS he can do..but can't seem to write a resume to find himself a better paying job than the one he has. He finds work a dreadful waste of time..similar to how he found high school..and does all of his "creative" work at night at home in his apt room....Lord only knows. This is what Harvard accepts, I suppose. Just a person who loves learning...but I am not sure can make much of a contribution to society because it is for his own purposes at this point!!! I think at some time he should be ripe to be a college professor or something..so he can share his passion and interests with like-minded people whether they be other adults or college kids. I do hope he finds himself someday...it may take a long long time!!!!</p>
<p>Oh and by the way...my S thought that fraternity parties were like attending football games without the game. He just didn't get the whole camaraderie thing!!!</p>
<p>sgiovinc1 -- Your son might be on to something. I know a kid who got an Irish passport because it allowed her to get a work permit in Europe where most jobs are restricted to EU citizens.</p>
<p>St. John's University in Annapolis, MD and many LACs,</p>
<p>I think I "get" Liz's question and that it's valid. I'm very much in sympathy with Garland's posts about the kids who are focused on I-banking, etc., all very careerist in their approach to education. </p>
<p>While I think you will find students of a more intellectual bent at most any campus, I think some schools more than others are where this is the norm. Some of the schools mentioned, like Chicago, Swat, Reed, St. Johns are all good starts. I think there tends to be some negative correlation with size and social emphasis...if the weight is on Greek life and sports, it ain't likely to be on burning intellectual passions in dorm conversations at 2am.</p>
<p>I would say that kids with natural burning curiosity would have a strong pull to universities with huge libraries and major research resources and world-famous professors, which would include pretty much all of the Ivy League schools, many of the flagship state universities, and a few selected LACs. Kids whose curiosity includes curiosity about people from various places might like better schools in big, urban campuses with students from all over the world than itty-bitty schools with mostly domestic students. </p>
<p>I say about my own college experience that I got my degrees from College X and Professional School Y of State U., but I got my education from the State U. Libraries, and from my classmates and the NON-students I worked with while working my way through school.</p>
<p>This is something I'm pretty concerned about in terms of college choices... I was accepted EA to Stanford and will still apply to Swarthmore and Yale. I love the intellectual student body at Swat, and want to be sure that I wouldn't be giving up being around students like that if I went to Stanford. Do you think there are still a large group of students at Stanford with that same intellectual vitality, what they <em>claim</em> to seek in their applicants? How hard would it be to meet them?</p>
<p>My definitions:</p>
<p>The intellectually curious student, when presented with a new fact or concept, is usually interested and immediately begins to think how this new thing might connect to others things and what it's deeper significance might be.</p>
<p>The intellectually incurious student, when presented with a new fact or concept, raises his hand and asks the professor: "Will that be on the exam?"</p>
<p>coureur, excellent observation. </p>
<p>marlgirl, I don't think it will be hard to meet intellectuals at Stanford. It's big enough and rigorous enough that you will find them all over. I'm not sure that I could say the school has a majority of intellectuals, because there is a good deal of emphasis on careerism (getting into grad school) and also there's quite a vibrant athletic scene (not that athletes can't be intellectuals, but athletes of that high caliber cannot possibly be as focused on ideas/academics as non-athletes; they just don't have the time and probably need to sleep regular hours :) ). I would suggest visiting, if you haven't already.</p>
<p>I just want to remind everybody that we aren't talking black and white distinctions, but rather shades of gray. It's not like any school is 100% academic intensity or 100% lacking in academic intensity. The issue is more one of the predominant campus culture.</p>
<p>The campus culture is usually the result of decisions made decades or even centuries earlier. For example, Swarthmore's unusual degree of student involvement in academics dates to a decision made in the 1920's to implement an honors program with unusually small seminars, close interaction with professors, and other elements. This shaped the course of the college.</p>
<p>Likewise, the decision at Williams to have the winningest Div 3 athletic program in the United States has an impact on campus culture.</p>
<p>At Harvard, the availability of nearly unlimited funding for extracurricular activities shapes the way students approach college. None of these approaches are right or wrong. They are simply different. And, by no means do they mean that you won't find all kinds of students at any of these schools.</p>
<p>One statistic that is perhaps somewhat correlated to what you're looking for is the % of each college's graduates that go on to get PhDs.</p>
<p>I've seen links to this data posted on CC before, so it's around someplace.</p>
<p>My 2 cents:</p>
<p>Swarthmore, Haverford, and Amherst were by far the most intellectual of the schools I visited. Not to say that athletics make a school "un-intellectual", I simply think that at the more intellectual schools the athletics take a back seat to academics. This eliminated Williams from the list, though it was a school I found otherwise absolutely flawless.</p>
<p>Nevertheless, those 3 schools had something special.</p>
<p>I'd look to places with well thought of Physics, Math, and Theology (of all types) . Metaphysical places: top of mountains, deserts, middle of large bodies of water, cemetaries.</p>
<p>Instead of thinking about finding/going to a school with "intellectuals" with people debating a picture-try a different picture.</p>
<p>Intellectual curiosity is difficult to quantify or define. My parents were about as intellectual as rocks. They were smart enough and my father had an advanced degree, but they had the Depression and then the War to deal with and making a living and rearing children absorbed all their energy, freeing me, the next generation, to take the intellectual road. My husband and I raised our son in an environment of intellectual stimulus lots of books, art, travel, conversation and I feel that he went into college with a solid foundation as a thinker. After a year and a half of exposure to super bright kids and topnotch professors, Id say his brain is about to explode with ideas. Hes always been an effortless writer, but I noticed in recently that his thoughts have finally caught up with his writing ability. The best part has been watching him connect the dots between his various classes, like history, religion and art history to understand how ideas have ricocheted across the centuries. Williams requires a class in what they call quantitative reasoning meaning a non-verbal means of communication, like physics, math, or computer science. Many of the humanities/social science kids fear and loathe this requirement, but I think its a positive as thought cannot always be communicated in words. He will also take a tutorial (2 kids one professor) in painting. Again, conveying intellectual theory in a creative, non-verbal medium.</p>
<p>To answer to the OPs question: My son has truly found his niche among like minds at Williams. In spite of its high success rate at professional school admissions, Williams has a commitment to pure thought and the kids are highly intellectual. This doesnt mean that they spend their non-class hours contemplating Yoricks skull. I see no automatic conflict between intellectual vitality (thanks for the phrase, Marlgirl) and physical vitality whether its tennis, mountain climbing or dance. Many kids are blessed with both abilities; its not an either/or situation. (Thoreau got a lot of mileage out of walking around that lake.) And I dont see any reason why a school with active healthy kids cant also be an intellectual powerhouse. Again, its not an automatic either/or and I see no evidence that Williams has watered down its intellectual or academic atmosphere by excelling at sports. These kids are intellectually motivated to explore intellectual intangibles as well as academically driven to succeed for the sake of graduate school and the great unknown world of careers. The high caliber of the faculty and the academic rigor reinforce this motivation. </p>
<p>Id also like to comment on Momsdreams comment that her son would have been stuck (my work, not hers) at Williams, had his interest veered from Art History. Im not trying to suggest that her son would have been happier at Williams than he will be at Penn because I dont in any way believe that. I hesitated to add this as I dont mean to be overly defensive and certainly dont have any issues with Momsdreams sons choice, but since it bothered me, I just want to explain to any one else whos considering Williams that Art History is only one strong department albeit a well known one out of many. In fact, out 662 declared majors only 53 have chosen Art which includes both studio and history of. The most popular majors are English, Economics, Psychology and History with about 28% double majoring.</p>
<p>I would say the Claremont schools do a fantastic job of promoting intellectual curiosity (especially if you review the newspaper/s)</p>
<p>Touche, coureur.</p>
<p>"The intellectually incurious student, when presented with a new fact or concept, raises his hand and asks the professor: "Will that be on the exam?"</p>
<p>This is EXACTLY what my son used as an illustration of what he didn't like! So now I have a second question? Is it worth transferring for this particular aspect of fit when you are for the most part satisfied with your school? He has friends, people he likes and professors that know him. It does bother me a bit that he chose his major in search of others like himself. We have talked about it and sort of concluded that he might not find that niche till he is in grad school.</p>