<p>That's a tough question, Liz. This kind of atmosphere definitely played an important part in my D's decision to transfer. Though she was in an Honors program, she felt that the "will this be on the exam" atmosphere was definitely predominate. There was no real discussion for its own sake, even in Honors Freshman Seminar, and no discussion of ideas outside of class. She very much liked her professors, and the school offered all kinds of studyabroad and research opportunities, which she could have afforded to do because of the lower tuition and merit scholarship she got. When she was considering transfering, we made it clear that we couldn't afford the extras (summer programs, winter break study abroad, etc.)</p>
<p>On the negative side, the social life of the school also weighed against staying,being very frat-party oriented. The only good friend she made left after one semester.</p>
<p>By January, she decided to keep one foot in each camp: start the transfer process (which she'd dreaded) but look for reasons to stay. As the spring went on, she became more and more unhappy. She got to the point where contemplating going back made her physically ill. At this point, the question became moot; once she couldn't imagine staying, it was time to go. </p>
<p>Transfering is a huge, difficult step. I would always counsel looking for reasons to stay, but choosing to go if you otherwise feel you're going to be gritting your teeth throughout your college experience, rather than enjoying it. Perhaps over break, your S can figure out where along this continuum his experience fits. Good luck to you both.</p>
<p>I agree that student newspapers provide a candid snapshot of a college. Out of all the schools that we have visited with both kids, we found Amherst, Pomona, and Swarthmore to head the list of colleges promoting intellectual curiosity.</p>
<p>Coureur--in a sense, that may be true, but couldn't that also be attributed to how the material is presented in class? Some courses, particularly those taught in large lectures but not always, are geared toward data in, data out--just learn this material for the test. In others, the teachers truly are mesmerizing in how they teach and the atmosphere is more conducive to eliciting intellectual curiosity. Just a thought.</p>
<p>Oh Garland. I really and truly empathized with your child re: not returning to a school that made her physically ill. Sooo sad. If I can be so brazen , please finish the story. I might have picked up on this post too late...did she transfer and how is she doing now? What are the qualities of the institution that she didn't like in her decision to transfer? What does the new college experience have to offer that she didn't have there? Just curious..so I might get a handle on some concerns my own daughter may have.</p>
<p>THanks for your honesty and your candidness.</p>
<p>Sgio: The happy news, is that this all happened in the past. She's my elder; just graduated from May from Wesleyan, where she was very, very happy. Transfering turned out to be the best decision she ever made.</p>
<p>Qualities she didn't like: pervasive lack of this intellectual curiosity we're trying to define on this thread, apathy towards politics and world events in general, big-party frat style social life, and just a general feeling of not fitting in.</p>
<p>Differences at Wes: intense intellectual atmosphere, acceptance of difference for its own sake (being goofy, silly, oddball is ok), big political/issue interest, different style of social life, feeling that she fit in for the first time in her life.</p>
<p>And because of that, overall value of transfering? priceless.</p>
<p>I have to agree with Coureur's definition. No matter how brilliant the teacher is, there will always be students whose main interest is whether the materials will be on the exam; these same students will clog up profs' offices after the exam arguing that they should have gotten an A instead of an A- or a B+ instead of a B. They are usually not the same ones coming to the profs' office to discuss further what they had learned in class that week and asking for more to read on the topic.</p>
<p>One of the things I struggled with in regards to my son's choice of ED schools was that while we know kids there who clearly are "intellectuals", I also know several kids there whom I had taught in 6th grade health, and even then were scrapping for extra points on nutrition quizzes. </p>
<p>Do you think the two are always mutually exclusive?? </p>
<p>And now for a bit of stream of consciousness: ED deferral not such a bad thing? Rationalization good for mental health? Deferral looking a lot less important now that other main essay is nearly done!</p>
<p>Oh Garland...that is good news. Big-party frat style believe it or not is what my S did NOT like about MIT when he went to visit...though certainly the coursework would have been more in line with his interests. He opted for Harvard at the time and even though he knew they did not have an ANIME club or society, he started one there with a group of friends that to this day he has personal contact with..has been in their wedding parties, etc. And H student body accepted him for who he was...with all of his idiocyncracies.......I cannot say enough about that place despite all the negative criticism I've heard that it is there to serve only the elite. </p>
<p>I am relieved to find out that she has found true satisfaction and has successfully graduated from Wesleyan. I had heard good things about that school. Being limited in scope to a NYC suburb has made me very NARROW in reference to my ability to understand and appreciate other fine universities. We here only hear about the harvards, yales, princetons, and cornells.....so please forgive my naivete.</p>
<p>My older S did not go EA/ED. It was great in April being able to toss out the rejection letters because acceptances were received on the same day from great schools. The pro of EA/ED is also its downside. If you get in, great, you're done. If you don't, it can be hard to accept and move on. So I'm really pleased to hear that your S has been able to move on and been able to complete other essays!</p>
<p>Little Mother - The teaching atmosphere surely has some effect, but I think it fundamentally has more to do with the student. If it's in your nature, I think you can easily be intellectually curious about the the stuff you learn in a 300 student section of Accounting 101 taught by a TA. And similarly, you can be a test-oriented grade grubber in a 6 person seminar that is an in-depth discussion of the philosophy of Spinoza, although it seems less likely to me that an incurious student would be taking the Spinoza class in the first place.</p>
<p>sgiovinc1:
You are consistently able to MIT bash, aren't you!</p>
<p>In my experience when an individual feels so compelled to tear down one thing while feeling so defensive about another, frequently this is to rectify a degree of "cognitive dissonance." </p>
<p>Sure, MIT has frats and the frats have parties. NO student is compelled to join or participate and all students can have a social life whether or not they join a frat. Oh, and people at MIT are pretty tolerant of idiosyncratic individuals as well. C'mon. </p>
<p>MIT is not for everyone. No school is for everyone. Even Harvard.</p>
<p>Marite:
Thanks, I am thrilled as well. This is our second "eh" experience with ED..you think we would have learned. If the outcome come April is even remotely the same as last year, we will all be happy campers. By the way, hearty congrats to your son!</p>
<p>what I have heard about MIT is that it is very creative which I would equate with intellectual curiousity
<a href="http://hacks.mit.edu/%5B/url%5D">http://hacks.mit.edu/</a>
I think it has more to the student as well. The relationship between students/class/prof is all interconnected and thrives or stagnates depending on the mix, but it isn't necessarily the professors fault that she can't engage the students.
I think class size has some what to do with it. In classes of 30 or less it was much easier to get discussions going than in 400 plus.
Smaller schools also seemed to be more likely to have discussion in the bathroom and cafeteria that began in the classroom than bigger universities.</p>
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<p>Roby said: "sgiovinc1:
You are consistently able to MIT bash, aren't you!</p>
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<p>"In my experience when an individual feels so compelled to tear down one thing while feeling so defensive about another, frequently this is to rectify a degree of 'cognitive dissonance.'</p>
<p>"Sure, MIT has frats and the frats have parties. NO student is compelled to join or participate and all students can have a social life whether or not they join a frat. Oh, and people at MIT are pretty tolerant of idiosyncratic individuals as well. C'mon. "</p>
<p>This is why I never name the school my D left. I know how dreadful her experience was, and I also know I'd be accused of bashing if I ever named it.</p>
<p>WHOA!!!! I don't think I deserved that one, Robyrm...You need to settle down now!!!!I am only stating what my son felt about MIT. He made the observations, not me!!!! My only experience was when I called a student who was expecting my son's overnight visit at a fraternity house and I got a frat brother who was incomprehensible to me on the phone, garbled and breathy. In speaking with him, I found out that he spoke that way because he had suffered a stroke while at MIT..and did not graduate and was living in the frat house because he had little to no source of income. His frat bros were supplying a place to "crash" until he could move on with his life. I was frightened to death that that could be my son....so I believed that the life there was very tough...in those days, you needed to join a frat house to get four years of guaranteed housing..things migh have changed, but the frat houses were across the Harvard bridge and quite a distance from the campus. I felt your remarks toward me were rather harsh and I do believe I am entitled to my opinions without fear of reprisal from you or any one else.</p>
<p>Not all intellectual curiosity manifests itself in marathon discussions in or out of class. To give an example:
when my S was in 4th grade, the teacher gave a word problem for homework. Find the two numbers with digits 1-9 used only once that, together, added up to a five-digit number; all the students were told was the sum. Some students found the problem too hard; their parents called the teacher all evening to complain. Some students found two numbers that satisfied the question and left it at that. My S found two numbers then asked aloud (it was dinner time): could there be other number combinations? Eventually, he found there were 96 and wrote a two page explanation of why it was so. Now, if only his intellectual curiosity could extend to human events and the arts, then he could engage in these discussions in classrooms, cafeteria, and even men's rooms...</p>
<p>I understand that but it is still the student that continues the curiousity, I think that for some of these students who continue the discussions out of class, it may be the first time in their school career that they have peers who are interested in similar things.
IF your son had , had a friend who was as equally compelled to spend time on math equations think of how good his keyboarding skills would become, by sending IM's! :)</p>
<p>I also, to respond to another post, think that physical activity but not necessarily competitive sports, gives support to intellectual activity.
Some of the finest minds I know are very very active, not world class marathoners, but physical activity is an important part of every day.
Great thought also needs time to percolate, and exercise engages the body while giving our mind time to think.</p>
<p>Marite...that is why yur son will be attending Harvard. My S would have done the same.....and probably been so excited with the actual quest would not have been able to sleep that night. I remember those years well!</p>
<p>Sgiovinc1:
I am sorry if you felt my response harsh. In reality, I feel very relaxed about the whole thing, it is just that you post periodcally with mis-information about MIT which I feel is worth rectifying. For example, a while ago (on another thread) you posted that MIT had a freshman drop out rate of 1/3 - and claimed you heard this at an MIT info session. I have received MIT admissions information every single year for the past 26 and the rate has never been even remotely close to this magnitude. MIT housing policies previously included freshman in frats due to tight housing. Having been at MIT when housing was particularly tight (lots of triples in my day) and having been VERY involved with freshman housing I can state 100% that no freshman was ever forced to be in a frat, and MIT has always guaranteed 4 years of housing every year that I am aware of. Boston/Cambridge are very, very expensive as I am sure you know. Now, because of concerns about the experience of freshman in frats, new dorms have been built and freshman no longer live in frat houses. There are frat houses interspersed with dorms on the Cambridge side of the river along Memorial drive as well as in other locations in Cambridge. There are many frats on the Boston side. Many people enjoyed life on the other side of the river and did not consider it a hardship in my day, and I am sure feel the same way now.</p>
<p>I am not sure I understand the connection between the student who had the stroke and your worry about your son and the "hardship" of MIT life. MIT students work hard and the result is a fine education, life long friendships, wonderful life opportunities. As is true for some Harvard graduates, some MIT graduates have unfortunate life experiences which may or may not have to do with their MIT experiences. I don't know about the situation you reference. </p>
<p>You are, by all means, entitled to your opinion. I never meant to suggest otherwise. There are facts, and then there are opinions, however. </p>
<p>Garland:
Can I just clarify that I refer to what Sgiovinc1 does as "bashing" simply because he has had (from the information he has posted) such little experience with MIT that I find it surprising he has such strident feelings. I suspect, therefore, that there is another reason he is so consistent in his negativity. </p>
<p>I would guess the school that your child chose to leave might be the right school for another child, and I am sure you suspect the same. No school is perfect and no school is perfect for every student. I respect you for your great care in this regard.</p>
<p>My S has excellent keyboarding skills, but they are honed on web fiction! My idea is that intellectual curiosity does not always manifest itself in discussions. Andrew Wiles shut himself up in his attic for 10 years precisely because he was intellectually curious. And I've also known any number of students who can BS their way through class discussions about readings they have not done. Of course no college can be made up entirely of reclusive scholars, however brilliant, or classes full of BS artists.</p>