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then what about non believers?
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<p>Non believers who HAVE been exposed to God and had the opportunity to accept him but still reject him will be separated from God. However, those who have never been exposed to God may definitely been given a second chance. We don't know for sure, but that's what many theologians believe.</p>
<p>what do you mean by "exposed to god". if you mean just been told about it, then that's a pretty mean reason to seond someone to hell. "you didn't believe this group of people for their seemingly outlandish claims so you're going to hell!"</p>
<p>oh ya muffin, the requirement of energy for life is a really good point that I couldn't really put my finger on until you said it. actually, quoting wikipedia, "biological systems and obviously the evolution of those systems conform to the second law, since although biological systems may become more ordered, the net increase in entropy for the entire universe is still positive as a result of evolution.[9]"</p>
<p>hm :( I wonder if unborn infants are considered "unbaptized children" who would by some christian beliefs go to limbo...
I'm not sure what the general christian consensus is about non-believers, but in the version of hell in Dante's Inferno, "virtuous pagans" dwell in limbo. I can imagine that in contemporary faith, non-believers who have the choice to believe or not are sent to hell</p>
<p>in one youtube video I watched by that older atheist guy, he said something like, "it would be pretty unfair that we're born having to pay a debt caused by our ancestors, without a choice unless we want to be damned"</p>
<p>yahooo, But still you have to ask yourself whether its fair. Someone could be an all around nice person but was swayed by the reasoning of science. That person would be damned to infinite suffering. I still see it as overly cruel.</p>
<p>um yeah, coffee i agree with you. what did you think i said?</p>
<p>lol edited. don't sweat.</p>
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yahooo, But still you have to ask yourself whether its fair. Someone could be an all around nice person but was swayed by the reasoning of science. That person would be damned to infinite suffering. I still see it as overly cruel.
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<p>I would agree that it would be cruel for those people who never of God to be sent to hell. I actually asked this exact question to some very people sometime back, and what they said was that God definitely makes exceptions. Frankly, I've been actually having a lot of questions lately as well, but it really comes down to faith, which isn't worth explaining because it doesn't constitute as sort of "evidence." I'd say just keep being open-minded and don't be too zealous of one particular viewpoint. All we know is that there are tons of things that can't be answered.</p>
<p>lol, looking through this topic, as well as finding this</a> website, the (omg-amazing) film Rocket Science comes to mind</p>
<p>"Top debaters, we never really believe in anything. It gets in the way of arguing both sides." - Ginny Ryerson</p>
<p>I'm not really a debater, but I should probably learn more about creationist arguments/ways of thought</p>
<p>(agrees with yahooo)</p>
<p>atheists only believe what there is evidence for. that's why our way of thinking is the one closest to truth. if everyone believed in what there isn't any evidence for, our technology would suck and we'd be wasting our time doing stuff that may or may not have any positive effect in our lives. oh well, ignorance is bliss huh?</p>
<p>The smartest people in the world haven't been able to answer questions about the meaning of life, God, etc. So I have a feeling some questions will remain unanswered for a long time, maybe forever.</p>
<p>Approaching the religion vs. secular question from a purely utilitarian perspective, it seems like religious people are happier than atheists - Religion</a> Makes People Happier </p>
<p>Of course, just because religious people are in general happier than nonreligious people doesn't mean that religion causes increased happiness.</p>
<p>it's kind of ironic cause i have a strong dislike for religion, but i really wish i could think like one. then instead of "my life sucks and i have to fix it by myself" i can think "god will make things better". i'm so jealous, but not at the same time</p>
<p>about believing (really, agreeing with) what there is evidence for is closest to the truth - how do we know that even the basis of our knowledge, what we deem to be evidence, is true? (I'm not saying this about evolution, just in general) while we can do our best to prove and observe, we can only become 99.9999% sure of things, because all we have are our own viewpoints. this is where epistemology and philosophy come in, and why those with faith are justified in believing what can't be proven</p>
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both of these are good ideas, ASSUMING GOD EXISTS. it's kinda strange how we have to make excuses for him though. everything would be much simpler if we just took him out of the picture
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<p>Occam's Razor, huh. I agree that I find thinking about stuff is easier without God around, haha. </p>
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Approaching the religion vs. secular question from a purely utilitarian perspective, it seems like religious people are happier than atheists - Religion Makes People Happier
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<p>I was just reading about this for my psych class. The text did say that this might mean that happier people are more accepting of religion, so we can't be certain which way the causal arrow points. My soc textbook also mentioned the religious people live longer. It ALSO mentioned that Republicans live longer than Democrats, who live longer than Independents. Perhaps it has to do with the way we stress out about stuff, like mr muffin mentioned. I think this is pretty interesting stuff, but I wouldn't trade away my sense of individual responsibility to be happier and/or live longer.</p>
<p>tbs:
to be true, something HAS to be internally consistent. so far, science has produced results that are consistent within itself (for the most part. there are still stickys that scientists are trying to fix) and consistent with what the people observe. you are right that we can never really PROVE anything. science is only a method of disproving and suggesting. but if something were to change, we would fix our theories to fit the new observation. but religion doesn't change in its core beliefs. people just like to "loosely" interpret things in an attempt to keep it consistent with much of the results science has produced. kinda funny huh?</p>
<p>and faith, philosophy, OPINIONS, do not have any relation to what the facts really are, unless the facts are about the opinion.</p>
<p>Occam's Razor shouldn't be applied when determining which option is the "simpler" option is subjective. You can't necessarily say that the non-existence of God is simpler than the existence of God. For example, is the theory of relativity more simple than Newtonian mechanics? How do you define "simple"? Elegance? Compactness of equations/formulas? It could go either way.</p>
<p>my "simpler" claim was for humor purposes. IMO the world with god works this way: what science says + god. without god, it would be: what science says. that's simpler. i know other people won't agree that's how the world works, so oh well. no need to fight about it since it's all opinion</p>
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it seems like religious people are happier than atheists
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<p>Well, I think that just about works for anything. I mean, consider classes for example, for some people, getting an A is nearly impossible. But is it better to believe that? Well no, confidence goes a long way in determining how well one does a certain task. By being pessimistic, one get nervous and is more prone to screw up. By being optimistic, we focus to the best of our abilities. Out of all the tests I took, the ones I did the best on were the ones that I was totally confident( and those were the really difficult ones that I had little chance of getting an A on). I think all this relates to stress. Having high stress causes one to be anxious and unhealthy(I failed a final like this once). This is only exacerbated by pessimism( i.e unfortunately realism). However, tying this back to the topic of religion, if people believed that good things would come, they would be less stressed. And this is where prayer comes in.(gosh, I wish I was as religious as I used to be. Damn rationalism.)</p>
<p>mr muffin:</p>
<p>Clearly, the scientific method is superior to the "religious method" when it comes to obtaining truth (or coming close to it). The fact that the "religious method" is inferior in this respect does not constitute evidence for or against God. We are debating the existence of a supernatural being, not the effectiveness of man's set of beliefs (which of course may be misguided/flat-out wrong) regarding that being.</p>
<p>Just to throw oil on the fire:</p>
<p>Atheists, in my opinion, are far more ethically sound people than religious folks. They stand up for their beliefs (or lack there of) even when it has been unpopular and have decided to stand by what is TRUE (in their world view) and not what they WANT to be true. Their dedication to truth and their rigorous standard of testing of science, religion, and philosophy should be applauded and recognized as displaying a true heart and interest in pursing "the Truth." </p>
<p>Furthermore, from what I've seen, atheists do not self-deceive themselves into believing in "warm fuzzy theories" (such as God being a caring loving being who guides your life towards betterment only if you believe in hir) but rather are courageous about the realities of life. They recognize that individuals must take responsibility for their actions, and that they alone must be depended on to make the world a better place, rather than taking the easy route of simply praying and hoping for a better life/tomorrow.</p>
<p>I'm tired of this undercurrent in the religious world of atheists not wanting to believe in God because they lack morals or are largely cynical. When in fact, their pursuit of intellectual integrity is beautiful and inspiring -- at least to me, anyway. </p>
<p>Anyhoo, that's my insertion into this debate.</p>
<p>religion vs. happiness is really interesting, and pink I think we learned about similar statistics about spirituality vs. longevity (although republicans living longer than democrats - wow, other than republicans seem to be more rich on average)
it turns out that a few of the kindest and most caring people I know are deeply religious, while at the same time definitely being open to others' point of views. but I'm sure I'll meet an atheist who is just as kind, or hopefully at least</p>
<p>I don't know much about philosophy, but yes, it seems to concern the way people consider facts instead of actually discovering them. I do wish I could learn more about it though... too bad a physics major can't minor in philosophy, english, math, bio, comp sci, music, and art all at once :(</p>
<p>coffee - lol agreed about being confident. it's funny that in the experience of myself and some others whom I know, it sucks to fail something you're confident about ("it was easy"), and it's suuuch a relief to do well on something you freaked out about, anticipating failure</p>