Intro Math Classes...

Colleges and Universities A-Z Virginia Tech
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<p>I saw something about this on another thread and thought it rude to hi-jack theirs, so I thought I'd post my own.</p>

<p>Could someone please explain the first year math classes (Calc) for engineering students. The visual I just got of students in a large room at a mall... please tell me I have misunderstood. Can you give me an idea of the number of students/class, is there in fact a professor (or a TA) present, etc.?</p>

<p>I understand that these classes are part of the 'weed out' process. My frustration is, shouldn't the weeding out be done more during the admissions, as opposed to dumping the first years in the deep end to see who can swim? You've been accepted, now prove to us again that you should be here... but we promise it will be better your second year and we'll pay more attention to you then, when we make sure you are going to still be here. I don't mean to sound cynical, however this is the impression that is being given.</p>

<p>I would love to hear your experiences. Many thanks.</p>

<p>btw, S is very strong in math (as are all engineering students at VT I assume) so I am not worried about him failing. I am just trying to understand the method of instruction.</p>

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<p>blueiguana, </p>

<p>Hopefully chuy will give some more specific info from the engineering perspective, but from what I know, some of the intro math classes are held in what VT calls the Math Emporium. Basically VT took over a former building that used to house a store and converted it into a place where students go (on their own time or in some formal sessions) to take the classes. </p>

<p>There are computer stations within the building - how many I am not sure-and it isn’t just for the engineering kids (or used in order to try weed them out). From what my son told us, there are professors and TA’s and that are always present within the Empo for you if you need clarification. (You signal to them to come to your station by placing a cup on your area) </p>

<p>He utilized tutoring times with students and I remember him setting up an office hours help session time or two with his professor to go over some material he just wasn’t getting. In the beginning of the semester, they are given a schedule of the course, an approximate timeline of when they should have completed their material, i. e. units, etc. when they need to take the quizzes by and exam times. There is no “book”; everything is online or powerpoint. For one of the courses son took , he could take a quiz up to two times and average the grades for the final result. I don’t think he could do that for the exam, just the quizzes.</p>

<p>I wasn’t thrilled about hearing of it at first…(my “old school” educational style preferences really were shocked actually) but my son got used to it really quickly and actually seemed to like the approach and did fine. He is not a strong engineering type math kid, so that was a relief! However, he felt he learned the concepts well and has done great since in his classes (some which definitely needed that material).</p>

<p>For what is is worth, Tech isn’t the only school using an approach like this. An friend of ours is an Econ professor at another state school and said many bigger schools are utilizing this teaching method. Supposedly there was a big study done a few years back which showed that kids learned basic college math classes better in this way than with a 200+ class teacher led style. So, even though it is a bit non-conformist, especially to us old school parents, perhaps it has its merits. </p>

<p>Don’t worry, your son would be fine! BTW, the shuttle runs all hours directly to the empo so no worries about transportation. Hope this helps.</p>

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<p>I was wondering the same thing when I read that post, Blueiguana. </p>

<p>Being a mom, I fall into the “old school” category, but I can see how today’s kids would learn well in this setting, and thinking about it more, our son may actually do better with this style versus a a traditional overcrowded lecture hall setting. A cup on top of your station as a signal sounds kind of primitive, but I don’t know that a flashing light (haha) would be any better. Assuming there are professors and TAs scanning the room, the cup signal would work well. If a question is raised, the student then receives individual attention. I like it. Glad to know there is a free tutoring lab available too.</p>

<p>Thanks for shedding some light, KandKsmom.</p>

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<p>I would like to major in Political Science and minor in Economics, so I need to take Calculus, and this kind of setting is not very appealing to me, as math is not my strongest subject, and I would prefer traditional classroom setting. I was wondering if I can take this class over summer at a different University or maybe community college where I live?
Has anybody done it this way?</p>

<p>Thank you.</p>

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<p>With the exception of linear algebra and a couple of easier non-engineering Calculus courses, all of your math classes are taught by instructors in the traditional lecture setting. You go to the Math Emporium to take tests. You can also go there if you need assistance with any of the introductory math classes (although your professor will be available as well during his/her office hours). The idea is multiple redundancy (get the pun?) because one teacher would be overloaded trying to handle the concerns of everyone in a class; they realize that a lot of people are not good at Math and give numerous places to go for help. It’s not as if they sit you down with a textbook and test you after you read for thirty minutes. </p>

<p>Keep in mind even for the online courses (linear algebra and the non-engineering Calculus) you still have a professor you can go to if you need help. You can take practice quizes an unlimited amount of time until you get the concepts down. Not to mention there’s an absolutely ridiculous amount of resources both on-campus and online for any of these introductory courses, and the online nature of the course is actually pretty beneficial because you can finish the entire course in a month or two (giving you lots of breathing room later in the semester).</p>

<p>See also: [VT</a> Math Emporium](<a href=“http://www.emporium.vt.edu/emporium/parentfaq.html]VT”>VT Math Emporium)</p>

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<p>Okay, here’s how it works.</p>

<p>Calc I- No clue, I APed out of it. I think it’s taught like a normal class for engineers but I’m not sure.</p>

<p>Calc II - Taught as a normal class, with a professor and everything. When I took it we had the OPTION of taking the tests at the empo (more on that later) which everyone took because it meant you got more instructional time and you could take the tests up to 5 times. Dunno if they still do that.</p>

<p>Vector Geometry - You have a professor and meet as a normal class once a week, and you also have to go down to the empo about once a week to do quizzes or something. Wasn’t really that hard of a class if you have a basic grasp on trig.</p>

<p>Linear Algebra. You have no regular meeting time with a professor. You do have a professor though who does have office hours, including hours at the empo (I think.) They’ll meet with you on the first day and explain how everything works. Also, each lesson has a video lecture posted online that you can watch. You go once a week or so to the empo and go through the lesson on the computer for that week and take a quiz at the end of it. I think you can do the lessons from home if you want, but you can’t take the quizzes. You can go through multiple lessons a week and theoretically I guess you could finish the class in a couple days. It’s a pretty easy class.</p>

<p>Everything past that, which is Differential Equations (easy) and Multivariable Calculus (hard) is taught normally. I don’t know how non-engineering math classes are taught, and they could have changed something in the classes I did mention since I took them so don’t take what I say as gospel. </p>

<p>Now as to what the empo actually is. The Alumni Mall is about a half mile off campus, next to the local Kroger. You can walk it if you want but most people take one of the two buses that run directly to it. Inside the mall (it isn’t a big mall, just a few small stores and restaurants and an off-campus bookstore) is a huge room with a couple hundred computers arranged in clusters. Some of the computers are there for you to study on, including going through the lessons for Linear Algebra or whatever, and you can have whatever you want out. You can also ask any of the assistants there for help. In the back is the proctored area where you go to take tests and quizzes, and back there the only things you can have out is paper they give you and a pencil. You have to use the calculator on the computer. It’s kind of annoying but meh. Don’t worry about remembering any of this, they’ll explain it all to you on your first day at the empo.</p>

<p>edit: SpringVA, that sounds like something that should be possible. I wouldn’t think there’d be much of an issue with transferring a Calc class from a CC as long as you get it approved first. Get it approved first though.</p>

<p>edit2: I personally don’t like the empo and wish they’d have let us take the linear algebra tests at home if they were going to make it an electronic class. I also think that calc, especially for people that aren’t necessarily good at math, is the type of thing that should be taught by a professor since it is a pretty big leap from any other type of math. The presence of TAs and professors helps, but honestly you’re missing the big picture if you just learn to solve derivatives and stuff. The least important thing an out of major is going to learn in Calc is how to solve a derivative, the most important thing is how to break down a problem and solve it systematically. I think some of that is lost on students who choose not to seek out the help that is available, which I would bet is the majority of them. I don’t consider it to be that big of a deal though, definitely not a make-or-break type thing. It’s just a little annoying.</p>

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<p>Thank you for your responses. I am not thrilled with the approach, however I have not yet researched the other schools my S is considering so I can’t complain until I know how everyone else is approaching it. We had anticipated having him retake Calc in college regardless of his score on the AP test, thinking it would be important to learn from a college professor in an engineering department. I don’t know that it would make any difference in this case. If he tests out, I don’t know that there would be any benefit to taking it again in this setting.</p>

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<p>I just looked it up, and it looks like for engineers the first calc class is taught normally. As in, you’ve got a professor, you’ve got class a couple times a week, you never go to the empo. It’s the vector geometry and linear algebra classes that engineers have to go to the empo for.</p>

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<p>blueiguana, </p>

<p>I have heard from several friends who have kids in VT engineering that they felt having their s/d take the Calc class again in college was helpful, regardless of how it was taken. </p>

<p>I wouldn’t get too hung up on the approach that Tech uses. They are so proud of the reputation of that engineering program I highly doubt that they would jeopardize it by having those kids not learn what they needed to in order to succeed. I am sure had it not been working and the upper level profs saw that their students were not prepared, it would have been changed. Too much is riding on that school’s excellence. It is unconventional, but it must be working.</p>

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<p>Chuy- Thanks for the information. I really appreciate it.</p>

<p>KKmom- As I said…I don’t have much to compare it to yet. I haven’t checked out other schools. They may be doing something very similar so it is the norm & I’ll have to get over it. I would agree that VT takes a great deal of pride in their engineering dept. I would disagree that they would see the difficulty of anything as ‘jeopardizing’. Isn’t that what we are hearing about the ‘weeding out’, or is that urban myth?</p>

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<p>That is good info to know chuy. </p>

<p>Regarding jeopardizing, yes, what I feel is they aren’t imposing a particular teaching style in order to try to trip kids up or weed them out. The material itself or the demands of learning the material will cause kids to realize that engineering may not be their cup of tea. </p>

<p>So many smart kids go into engineering bc they think it is for them. It is not for the faint of heart. Especially at schools like VT. But Tech wants those of them that are truly dedicated to being an engineer to succeed and they can, even by using that empo approach with the entry level math classes. Remember it comes a lot of support in terms of tuturing, help sessions, etc., and is short lived in terms of the number of classes required. </p>

<p>On a side note, my son has just had his whole schedule of required classes for his major overhauled. He said they do that every 5 years in order to keep up with the trends of the discipline as well as to maintain excellence in the preparation of their future graduates. I would guess that engineering does the same. If they felt this concept for the maths was not working for the majority of their admitted students, wouldn’t they change things? I would hope so. </p>

<p>Let us know what you find out about other schools, it would be interesting to see.</p>

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<p>I will let you know what I find. I guess the idea of a student just choosing engineering because it’s cool or they think it’s what they are supposed to do because they got an A in calc is sooo foreign to me. My son is from an IT hs. Most will be engineers. Some comp sci, some ee… my son is aero/mech no doubt. No one HAS to know what they are going to do with their life at 16, but there are certainly those that know what they want to study. Not every engineering school has the ‘weed them out’ attitude. Personally I’m not a fan of it, but it will be my sons choice.</p>

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<p>I did not intend for it to seem like the empo was a strategy to weed kids out. Quite honestly, the Empo was built to save money and it does that considerably well.</p>

<p>As for passing up AP credit in Calc 1 (MATH 1205 here) I would suggest signing up for Calc 2. You’ll take a stupidly easy basic skills test and all of the important calc 1 concepts will be ‘reviewed’ in the first few weeks. I know guys who didn’t take their calc 1 AP credit and regretted it. They got less than an A at VT because they would make simple mistakes since they figured they already knew everything.</p>

<p>If worst comes to worst and you really aren’t ready to make the jump? Just drop the class and pick up Calc 1 again. Absolutely zero harm done. NONE! And you won’t be behind because you already know the material.</p>

<p><em>edit</em> vector geometry is more emporium based than calculus is, but it’s certainly nowhere near as emporium centered as linear algebra. Basically, for each class here’s how the assignments work:
Calculus (well, 1206C for Computer based WHICH YOU WANT TO TAKE!!!) has 6 emporium tests. You’ll probably have homework that may or may not be graded and maybe in class quizzes. You will get 5 chances during the week of each test to take the test; your best score counts. At the end of the semester, you’ll take what may be your only written exam in the class in the form of the common-time final. The best part about these emporium tests is that, like ALL OTHER EMPORIUM GRADED WORKS, you have a huge practice question pool to work on. The problems will all be of the same type as those on the exams just with different numbers or trig functions. The key to emporium classes is volume of practice quizzes taken = good grade. There’s really zero excuse for missing any questions on an emporium grade because you can theoretically see every problem before you take the test.</p>

<p>Linear Algebra: These notes are all online and there’s videos too. You’ll be able to finish the course on time with the average pacing or, if you’re smart, you will work ahead and finish early. Some students finish within a month, and that includes the final exam. Every week you’ll have a quiz that you can take from your own personal computer (no emporium required) and you will occasionally need to go to the emporium’s proctored section for a computerized test. You only get one shot at the emporium test; however, the tests are all pulled from the same pool of questions as the practice quizzes so there shouldn’t be any surprises.</p>

<p>Vector Geometry: This class meets during the week with both a lecture and a recitation. Recitation at VT in any freshman engineering class basically means you’ll be taking a quiz or working on problems; other universities sometimes have an actual reciting/review of material, but not here. Some find lecture useless and you’ll see your class attendance dwindle, but I still recommend going to class. All the notes you’ll need for the quizzes or the emporium tests will be in the book, but it’s good to hear it from a professor. At the recitation, you’ll work on problems far more difficult and on topics you probably didn’t cover in class. Get used to it :slight_smile: and just do your best. VT used to do graded quizzes in the recitations, but I am pretty sure that ended two semesters ago. You only get one shot at the emporium test; however, the tests are all pulled from the same pool of questions as the practice quizzes so there shouldn’t be any surprises.</p>

<p>Long story short? I took all 3 classes last semester. Did better than a 95% in all of them. Know why? Because I probably took more practice quizzes than anyone else and spent the time I needed to getting help from the tutoring lab and friends. If you can give your empo classes a few hours a week and a few more hours during the weeks of exams, you’ll be fine.</p>