<p>Can you guys give me the different tiers for the top universities to get into investment banking or just getting into Wall Street in general? From what I heard Wharton and Harvard r the top </p>
<p>Go to an ivy. Can you afford any of them is the next question?</p>
<p>Though more than Ivies are Street targets (including publics like Ross, Haas, McIntire, and those who get in the IB Workshop at Kelley). Also Duke, Northwestern, Stern, McDonough. Check Wall Street Oasis.</p>
<p>Ivies plus top 20s</p>
<p>Basically the lower the acceptance rate, the easier it is.</p>
<p>.l</p>
<p>(Tier 1 HYPMS + Wharton), (Tier 2 Columbia, Duke, U Chicago, Northwestern, rest of U Penn, Dartmouth), (Tier 3 Ross, Haas, UVA business, rest of ivies). If I’m missing anything feel free to add.</p>
<p>^that sounds pretty accurate</p>
^Not totally.
Tier 1 is really just HYP and Wharton. MIT kids are considered more nerdy than those four and Stanford’s disadvantage is being on the west coast which is considerably more lightly recruited than schools east of the Mississippi.
Tier 2 would include Stanford and MIT and then Columbia, Duke, Dartmouth, and Chicago. Rest of Penn gets overshadowed by Wharton which makes it harder to break in from an econ major than it otherwise would be. Northwestern’s schedule screws everything up; it’s not an ideal school for getting into IB and alumni representation on the street for them is relatively low. Recruiting is better there for consulting.
Tier 3 is like Ross, McIntire, Stern, Haas (west coast IB only, harder to get to NYC from there), UPenn CAS, Cornell, Brown, Georgetown, Williams, Amherst
Tier 4 would include schools like Northwestern, Vandy, Emory, McCombs, Kelly (IB Workshop only), Notre Dame
And then a Tier 5 would be like Umich LSA/Engineering, UW Madison business school, Boston College, USC, UCLA, NYU CAS, UNC, WashU Olin, and Cal (non-Haas)
Anything beyond that and there really won’t be any sort of on campus recruiting and you’d have to recruit on your own. Up to “tier three” or so you’re in really good shape and a majority of the big banks should recruit heavily on campus.
This is all with the caveat that on a bank by bank basis this whole “tier” system doesn’t exist. There’s simply target schools and everyone else (non-targets). The schools that would get placed in these “tiers” are there on a broader industry basis based on how many of the major banks and elite boutiques make those schools targets and recruit on campus. If you want to go to a bank that doesn’t target your school, you’ll either have to have a connection that can get your resume in front of someone who will actually give it a fair look or network into a connection. Applying online doesn’t work, period.
If you don’t go to a target school, you should really just skip the financial sector altogether if you’re in it for the “money” and go into a field that will give you a “fair” look based on the skills you have versus the name of the school you went to on your resume. The financial sector isn’t nearly as lucrative as it once was and considering that most of the major financial hubs are located in the most expensive places to live, you may actually do better financially elsewhere.
For example, I graduated with a BS Computer Science and a 2.7 GPA from a state university. I had zero connections. I applied online to a defense contractor in Maryland after graduation, had a 30 min phone interview, and was given an offer letter within 30 days of graduation. I was offered $80k/year (close to $100k/year including my military income from the National Guard), 35 hour work weeks, over 6 weeks of vacation per year, excellent health care, unlimited tuition reimbursement, etc. In order to maintain the same standard of living, I would need a guaranteed $160k/year (none of this BS bonus that’s taxed at almost 50% at the end of the year) and the same work/life balance in a place like NYC … for an entry level software engineer. The demand in this sector was so high that where I worked could be classified as an absolute zoo – with skilled engineers having the most ridiculous upper hand over employers in the employment game. During an annual review, another engineer stopped a manager short and said, “Look. I don’t care whether you rate me a 1 or a 5. I don’t care if you say I come in at 11am and leave at 2pm and do nothing in-between. You need me so just pay me.”
The financial sector is asking you to do a LOT of work (get into/go to an Ivy level school, living in a expensive place low six figures is still poverty, work 70+ hour work weeks, etc.) for a lifestyle that isn’t particularly impressive (at least not to me).
^You’re completely missing the point of why people go into banking.
Nobody’s doing it because they get paid 120-130k year one out of school. It’s a raw deal if you’re looking for that, even though I’m personally very happy to pony up what it costs to live in NYC because it’s an amazing city. I’d hate living outside of a major urban center immediately postgrad. People go into banking because of the career trajectory it provides. After two or three years someone who’s done banking will easily be making 200k+, more if you can make it into top exit opps, and many will be millionaires by 30 or earlier. Your argument really isn’t valid because people don’t usually become bankers so they can stay bankers their whole life. It gets much better and the career trajectory of someone who does go through two years in a major bank is simply unmatched. Why do you think all these super smart kids are still clamoring to get these jobs?
The point that is being missed is in order to predict whether something is worthwhile, you need to do a risk/cost vs. benefit analysis. All too often, people are lured into what seems promising blind to the fact the probability of failure is far greater than the probability for success. Investment banking sells a lot of college students with a pipe dream of becoming wealthy which is not a probable outcome.
I’m in agreement with you that the “optimal path” career trajectory in finance is unmatched by most fields. The problem is that very few reach that optimal path. There are plenty of testimonials of those that do and relatively few testimonials of those that don’t. People don’t like to share their failures.
I went to a pretty good blue ribbon high school that produced a significant number of students that went on to Ivy-level schools and subsequently the financial sector. I have done financially better than all for a few reasons:
• Income: started out from college at $90,000 (private sector + military income) and experience 10-15% average growth per year since then while never having to absorb the opportunity cost of post-grad education (more on how I have been able to sustain an average 10-15% yearly growth in income below)
• Opportunity costs: None. I have never stopped working to complete post-graduate education, and thus have never experienced a period of time where I had a substantial drop in income. Many in finance will end up having an opportunity cost of 2 years due to a full time MBA and education debt on top of that.
• Expenses: cost of living of NYC (finance) vs. Maryland (defense)
• Educational debt: walked out of undergrad with ZERO DEBT due to State Tuition Waiver from service in the National Guard. Will never have debt for further education such as an MBA or PhD
• Savings: Access to both a 401k and Federal Thrift Savings Plan. By using both accounts, I am able to contribute up to $36,000 ($18,000 per account) per year tax-free. Due to the relatively low expenses, I have maxed it out ever since my first job after undergrad
• Because my work weeks are generally 35 hours, I have extra time to pursue goals that facilitate career progression as well as hedge against risk:
o Completed a MS Computer Science while working full time DEBT FREE. 6 years of equivalent work experience in 4.5 year span which resulted in faster advancement/promotion than peers. Now I’m looking to either complete a MBA and/or PhD Computer Science part time for free to maintain the rate of progression over peers.
o Overtime: overtime where I work is paid at 1.5-2.0x the normal rate and is deposited at the end of the 2 week pay period. The idea that you have to bust your ass for 80 hours a week in finance and be paid as a lump sum bonus that is taxed heavily at the end of the year IF YOU DON’T GET LAID OFF is hilarious.
o Military reserves: Career progression here goes hand in hand with the defense sector. The networks of both are very interconnected. Fortunately, as a member of the Maryland National Guard, I have access to one of the most connected networks to Capitol Hill. Think about it, the congressional staffers that work on the Hill and are in the reserves are either in the Virginia National Guard or Maryland National Guard. Success and progression in one ladder is a self-fulling prophecy for the other.
• Retirement/Health care
o Military officer retirement/pension on top of private sector savings and investments
There’s a reason why states like MD, TX, NC, SC, etc. have done remarkably well in the past few years compared to states like NJ, NY, CA, etc. In fact the state that I currently reside in (Maryland) beat out Connecticut (home of hedge funds) for most millionaires per capital (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/rosenwald-md/post/maryland-tops-the-country-in-millionaires/2011/11/07/gIQAtlphvM_blog.html). Wealth in states like NY, CT, are concentrated in the hands of the very few. Also, there are good reasons why states like NY and NJ are on the decline. These states where the economies have traditionally been driven by the financial sector are no longer the powerhouses they once were. For every 1 person moving into these states, almost 2 are moving out citing better job prospects elsewhere and better cost of living (http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2015/01/people_are_fleeing_nj_faster_than_any_other_state_moving_company_says.html).
The bottom line is that I now have a higher net worth than most of my peers that slaved away in finance because I simply had a better plan and not because I was any smarter or had some prestigious brand name on my resume. Remember, I came from a middle class family with no substantial network and a 2.7 GPA from a state university.
Personal success isn’t determined by the name of the school you went to, by who your parents are, or what field you enter in the beginning. It’s determined by continual thirst for improvement, ambition, and how you create your own “angles” for success.
^ Your military income and benefits, while great, are irrelevant to the discussion,
^ Defense sector AND military. Dual income/benefits. The point is investment banking makes you put all your eggs in one basket if you will. When you work 80+ hours a week, you have zero time for anything else. Your career will largely be dictated by your employer because there’s no time left to work a hedge against the up and out culture of investment banking.
I’m would never advocate a relationship where you slave away for an employer and largely let them determine the progression of your career.
Polo, your comments about taxes are silly. If you’re making as much as you ay you are, your marginal rate at the federal level, is exactly the same as the rate that an investment banker’s bonus is taxed. (sorry for the grammar, or lack thereof)
Also, you seem to be on a soapbox here - do you really know the net worth’s of most of your peers that “slaved away” in finance?
I want to go into investment banking in a few years but @polo08816 seems to have a great gig going on. He works half the time of what those on wall street work and probably makes more money based on cost of living. He has time to enjoy his money and probably gets enough sleep everynight. Many people talk about the exit ops of banking and how much money you can make but you are much more likely to burn out before then. By the time your 30-35, a job like polos is going to sound really great.
I think that Polo has some very good points. He/ she is very articulate and informed about his/her career path, albiet a bit defensive.
But military service is not a choice for everyone. And it is not the only way to graduate debt free. Nor is attending a state school for that matter. All of my three kids graduated from very expensive private schools, two debt free because of scholarships, financial aid, parental help and working during school. S has a little debt because he opted not to work.
There is opportunity to make many and more ( GOT fans, haha) dollars in Investment banking than working for a defense contractor. I agree that the risk is higher. The risk/ return trade - off should be understood by anyone choosing investment banking versus Polo’ s career choice.
I do not know how old Polo is or how much he/she makes at this point. But I can say my D1, working in the trading side of IB,earned a yearly income well into 6 figures by the age of 26. In trading she does not work the 90+ hours a week. But it is high pressure and risk. Because of her high income, young age and few obligations ( no debt, no children, no mortgage at this time) she has saved a lot. Her retirement savings at this point are probably more, sadly, than many baby boomers.
And finally, many people would gladly pay more to live in NYC vs Maryland. Not meaning any disrespect to Maryland, but really? I know Maryland is near DC. But NYC is NYC. Just sayin