<p>I read this very interesting article and while is it a little lengthy, I think it is worth reading, took me 20 minutes or so so it should take you guys maybe 10? If anyone reads this article I would love to hear your take on this please as I keep telling my son that a College Degree is not enough for him to have a great chance to land a good job when he graduates and he should keep in mind that Graduate school might become a neccesity at that time. He pulled up some article he found on the net listing the multitudes of jobs available for anyone with a Degree in Psycology so I did not have anything "concrete" to debate this with him until I came across this article:</p>
<p>It is hard to predict the job market down the road. Something with lots of openings now may not have them later on when everybody who flocked into the field (due to all those jobs) graduates. If a job is particularly hot, it probably won't stay that way for long.</p>
<p>I don't know of people flocking into psychology right now due to the big bucks, however! The better paying jobs probably do require graduate work. Some people probably get work out of college, get some experience, and then decide to go to grad school, knowing what they want out of going.</p>
<p>If graduate school is necessary to get the time of work a student wants, well, then it is necessary. You simply can't know the job market years in the future. Why are you guys talking about this now? Grad students work and get their education and small stipends, I believe. It isn't like you are going to be out-of-pocket the same way as undergrad. Also, sometimes employers will pay for someone's graduate work.</p>
<p>I read the article. But it seemed more a problem of graduates lacking money sense, generating more debt to finance a life style they can't afford.</p>
<p>"I read the article. But it seemed more a problem of graduates lacking money sense, generating more debt to finance a life style they can't afford."</p>
<p>This crossed my mind too to be honest. Reason why this topic was brought up with my son was that I was telling him that even though the Article he pulled off the net says that you can get so many jobs with a Psychology degree, this might not be the case at the time when he graduates, which is is exactly what you are saying here too if I understand you correctly. So, I am trying to tell him to consider having a backup plan so why not have maybe some certifications in the "pc" field seeing that he is good with computers?</p>
<p>To this he replied that he already has this covered having Accounting as a Minor. He started doing College Accounting classes last year at the beginning of his Senior year in HS so it looks to me like he is figuring on branching off into accounting if the Psych thing don't work out, might be good for him seeing that Math has always been his strongest subject. Anyway, so that's how this whole issue got started bewteen us.</p>
<p>I do like the ideas you have given me above such as </p>
<p>"Grad students work and get their education and small stipends, I believe. It isn't like you are going to be out-of-pocket the same way as undergrad. Also, sometimes employers will pay for someone's graduate work."</p>
<p>You guys should understand something please, it is in my nature to try to be "prepared" for future problems/situations which is why I will always ask questions "ahead" of time to have a game plan if I should need it.</p>
<p>I don't think most of the kids on this site will end their education with just a B.A. They may go to work for a few years and then go back to school when they know what they want to do. Hopefully, they'll find a direction in college which will help them decide what course is best - business, academia, research, and continue their education to fullfull their dreams.</p>
<p>Postponing a house and kids isn't such a bad thing - we had to do it.
I think having kids late keeps you young! I was in my late thirties chasing after preschoolers. I waited until I could stay home with them, which meant having kids in my mid/late thirties. I have a lot of friends who did the same thing.</p>
<p>Credit-card debt is the real problem,which this article addresses, I think. College kids should be given a credit card and expected to pay it off themselves through whatever combination of work and parent support they have. I think my daughter truly understood the value of a dollar when she started to pay her own bills - even if we were the funding source. </p>
<p>Even when we were in school, few 30 year olds we knew had "made it" aleady, meaning they were set with a high-paying job, house, kids and no debt. Maybe those with family money could do that, ( some parents buy their kids houses!) but not the average
person. It takes time and hard work to build a life and a nest egg.</p>
<p>One positive change, however, is how much healthier and longer we live now. Many of us in our fifties are fit, active, and looking forward to 40 more good years, at least. It's not all bad news!</p>
<p>"Postponing a house and kids isn't such a bad thing - we had to do it."</p>
<p>Same here.</p>
<p>"I think having kids late keeps you young!"</p>
<p>Not OUR kids!:)Lol. Right now I am dealing with even more problems with my 6 year old who had to be put on medication last year due to Diagnosed ADD to keep him calm during schooltime, it absolutely devastated me to have to "drug" my 6 year old son but the school told us that we don't have a choice if he is to continue in that school.</p>
<p>Getting back to the Aritcle, where my 17 year old is concerned, I think he will be alright managing his finances as he has been doing for over a year now and with an Accounting background and also being a "cheapskate" as I sometimes call him, he should do alright in that area but yes, just like your daughter, my son only started to understand the value when he started working and we told him that he has to Bank at LEAST half of his earnings and use the rest to manage his other financial responsibilities [some sport costs, "luxury" clothing, entertainment e.t.c] of which we help him with those expenses but he contributes the major part of it.</p>
<p>Whether to have kids early or late I think is a two-way street, if you have them early then you can relax and enjoy life while you still have some youth left in you when they will be grown, if you have them late, this gives you a purpose and keeps you busy later on in your life, this is the way I see it.</p>
<p>It seemed to me that the article had more to do with the difficulties graduates faced in handling student loan and huge credit card debt than about the value of a graduate degree paid for with massive additional debt.</p>
<p>In my field of engineering, a graduate degree is definitely NOT necessary in finding gainful employment. For many, if not most, the on-the-job training they receive from their employer is far more valuable than a MS degree. I suspect this may be the case in other fields as well. In addition most large employers have tuition reimbursement plans which all it employeed to obtain an advanced degree part time for little or no cost.</p>
<p>However the issue of more students graduation with ever increasing debt obligations seems to be a serious problem. And as the article notes, it is sometimes not only a financial one but can lead to serious personal problems for a number of years following graduation. Students and families need to be smarter. It is very easy to pick from a group of the most selective colleges one has been accepted to and choose the one deemed "best" regardless of the amount of loans in the finaid package. Hopwever it is much more challenging to find a group of colleges which offer a better "value" and result in a debt free diploma. </p>
<p>The article also mentions that many graduates have a sense of entitlement which is has been drilled into them since childhood. In the real world there is no such thing. I recall a caller to the Suze Orman show, a young person concerned about job security and how to go about asking for a raise. Suze's answer was fantastic. The told this young caller to take command of the situation and do everything possible to make herself the most indispensible employee in the organizarion-come in early, work late, develop personal relationships with co-workers, supervisors and clients, take on special projects, develop excellent writing and communication skills, meet or exceed deadlines, dress as well as those in the corner offices, design a stylish and neat workspace, join professional organizations and offer to represent the company at their events, be a booster of company morale(organize a department picnic or golf outing), attend every company sponsored professional development program that you can. In short make it impossible for the employer to overlook you for that next promotion.</p>
<p>One of my students related the following story and I have passed it along to all my students since. Every payday he would play check stub poker for $1 with his supervisor. All it amounted to was to figure out the best poker hand using the check number on the stub. I know it sounds silly, but he did it during lunch and used it as an opportunity to eat lunch with him on many weeks. He related that this simple thing help him significantly through the years with the company.</p>
<p>originaloog,</p>
<p>What field of engineering are you in? My son is a junior in electrical engineering and he is still uncertain whether he should plan on looking for a long-term job after graduation, looking for something more like an internship or research opportunity then moving on to grad school, or going directly to grad school. He doesn't seem to be getting much guidance from his school. The field he is most interested in is signal processing.</p>
<p>So any insight you may have about this would be appreciated!</p>
<p>steel,</p>
<p>If your son ends up really liking psychology and ends up wanting or needing a masters, is that not possible? This is what I was trying to say. </p>
<p>If he likes accounting and math, perhaps a good fallback would be to be an actuary. It is something my son was doing the early testing for, but I don't know where he is in the process or even if he's still pursuing it. Just a thought that occurred to me ...</p>
<p>oh, absolutely DianeR, whatever field of work he should choose and be happy with is perfectly fine by me, I am just trying to make sure he has as you call it, a "fallback", I will definitely have him look into the "Actuary" thing, appreciate the referral, thanks!</p>
<p>Here's something about the actuary career. <a href="http://stats.bls.gov/oco/ocos041.htm%5B/url%5D">http://stats.bls.gov/oco/ocos041.htm</a></p>
<p>Appreciate the link, unfortunately it doesn't work? I was able to find this one a short while ago after you mentioned it:</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actuary%5B/url%5D">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actuary</a></p>
<p>Is this info ok?</p>
<p>oh, yes, it does work, sorry.</p>
<p>As more individuals obtain undergraduate degrees, the distinguisher will naturally become advanced degrees. As graduate degrees become required, it will become necessary to choose a school most likely to result in graduate school acceptance. This will, of course, likely lead students to look for "respected" colleges, with decent grade inflation, and few core requirements so iffy courses can be avoided. I think we already see this trend.</p>
<p>Huh, the link works for me. I just came back to give you a link to the listing for psychologists.</p>
<p>This BLS site is very useful. For each field, it tells you the jobs available, starting salaries, the education needed for different jobs, what they actually DO, and other good stuff as well.</p>
<p>This is the psychologist link. <a href="http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos056.htm%5B/url%5D">http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos056.htm</a></p>
<p>You may have to go to the search page and look for it yourself. This is the search page for the Occupational Outlook Handbook: <a href="http://stats.bls.gov/search/ooh.asp?ct=OOH%5B/url%5D">http://stats.bls.gov/search/ooh.asp?ct=OOH</a></p>
<p>And the home page for the handbook: <a href="http://www.bls.gov/oco/home.htm%5B/url%5D">http://www.bls.gov/oco/home.htm</a></p>
<p>If all else fails, go to google and type in "Bureau of Labor Statistics Occupational Outlook Handbook" and get a link that will work for you that way!</p>
<p>Actually, I'm glad this came up because I looked up engineers. Unfortunately, it is a general category so they don't go specifically into what training my son will need. But heck, he just turned 21 ... he's an adult, he should be doing this research for himself!</p>
<p>You were telling me the link works while I was writing up how to find it a different way. Oh, well ...</p>
<p><strong><em>Why are you guys talking about this now?</em></strong></p>
<p>Guess it would be called pre-gaming for the future possibilities - we have also talked about the future after college - good to know about the possible options and potentials.</p>
<p><strong><em>Grad students work and get their education and small stipends, I believe. It isn't like you are going to be out-of-pocket the same way as undergrad. Also, sometimes employers will pay for someone's graduate work.</em></strong></p>
<p>This is not always true - it can be pretty much grad school/masters dependant - many many grad schools don't offer the above and many many grad students do have to finance that period of education as well - it is alot to consider if thinking about going on to grad school. There are ways tho for some grad students to be able to fly thru grad school with minimal financial burden - tho not for all.</p>
<p>Yes - there are many employers that do provide the benefit of helping to pay for grad school - but again that is also field/job dependant and has no guarantee as well.</p>
<p>Acutally psych is a good basis for many majors and professional fields - yet standing alone it may not provide workable skills - but.....there are several areas in psych - for example - sports psych - that can provide experience for employment with a BS/BA. I agree that it is a very good idea to have a minor in ones hip pocket tho that can provide workable skills - just in case.</p>
<p>DianeR, I am on the faculty of the Civil-Environmental Engineering department though some of my courses have been cross registered with the MechEng courses in the area of fluid mechanics.</p>
<p>After graduation the choice will be between a full time position and grad school. Internships are almost always reserved for undergrads and research positions?-I'm not sure what you are talking about there. And why would a student choose these options over a full time position paying $50,000+ per year with benefits and on the job training.</p>
<p>For my students considering grad school I ask if they are considering PhD track with a 5+ year time committment or merely a MS program which can be completed in about 3 semesters max. If the former and if I think they are capable of PhD level research, I give them the green light because they will be financially supported during the duration of their studies.</p>
<p>For the MS degree guys and gals I usually suggest that the apply to grad school AND interview for a full time job. After the job offers come in they can make a more informed decision. However it is usually difficult to compare job and grad school offers because prospective employers want a timely decision and oftentimes grad school acceptances/finaid decision are not in hand.</p>
<p>Last year the avg starting salary for EE's were $55,000(BS) and $66,000(MS). If the student gets a very good job offer as an undergrad vs immediately going on to a MS program and accumulating an additional $25,000 in debt plus accumulating interest on undergrad loans, most of my students decide to take the job offer. During that 18 months they get valuable on the job training and experience, they get a pay raise, beging accumulating work experience to sit for their PE examination, and are beginning adult life(living independently, relationships, career building, etc). And who knows what next year's job cycle will be like?</p>
<p>If no good job offers come in, the easier choice is usually grad school. If added debt is still a concern they can always continue their job search and if something promising comes up between May and August they have the freedom of making a choice which is in their best interests. However if the student has accepted a TA or RA appointment it would be unethical to continue a job search IMHO.</p>
<p>Hmnn, breaking this down and to summarize, I "guess" this is saying that upon graduating from College, a person should consider Grad school mainly when that time comes and then make a decision based on the situation at that time concerning job offers and debt e.t.c?</p>
<p>One of the biggest issues with thinking about grad school before even going to college - will somewhat depend on where one lands during undergrad. It is very common for undergrads to change direction completely during college - but if grad school is on ones personal agenda - they will make it happen somehow.</p>
<p>Many students go right to grad school post undergrad - others take a year off - to figure things out and apply - and others take the job route with grad school as a possible benefit. In some fields - the first 2 options will apply - and in others - the latter one will apply. The financial piece will depend on the student and the specific program/path taken to achieve that goal.</p>
<p>Thank you so much for the information, originaloog. I will forward it to my son.</p>
<p>I don't quite know what he was thinking about when he was talking about getting something temporary once he finished undergrad. Perhaps he doesn't either and it was just wishful thinking!</p>
<p>I want to bust a few myths here:</p>
<p>1. College degree vs. job vs. "something to fall back on." It's nice when a college degree provides an easy entry into a job in field of study, but a person does NOT have to work in the same area/field that they majored in; and it is not necessary to have specific training or certification to get a good job. </p>
<p>I have a law degree but I don't currently practice law. I do a lot of semi-technical work (internet/computer related) and am entirely self-taught in terms of skills. I consider my employment to be very steady & secure.</p>
<p>My son dropped out of college two years ago. He has been steadily employed every since, often in a management capacity. He's restless so he's put out his resume again to change jobs, and he is looking at all sorts of interesting positions that branch out from what he has been doing. My son does plan to complete college - a BA is worth a lot in terms of salary and promotions -- but he is in no way confusing "college" with employability. When he moves from one job to another he looks for work that expands the range of his skills and experience. </p>
<p>Whatever the first job after college, it will help build skills leading to other work. There is nothing wrong with studying to get a certificate that will help build employability, but there can be a big problem with spending too much money on attaining the credential at a time when the person could be generating income and gaining valuable work experience. Quite simply, I worry about whether my son will ever get around to completing his degree, but I'm not at all worried about his ability to hold down a job and make good money. He's doing fine financially and has proved himself now to be capable and well-liked in the workplace. The hard part is finding the time to go back to school. </p>
<p>2. The linear approach to college + grad school. The college-to-grad-school path does not have to be done in consecutive years straight out of high school. It is o.k. to take time off in order to work -- and a person who is concerned about grad school and debt can spend 2 or 3 years working, paying off the undergrad debt, before starting grad school. Employers sometimes pay really nice benefits -- my son's last employer offered student loan assistance to help new hires to pay off their loans. Employers will also often subsidize graduate level study. Sometimes this doesn't work out to studying at a traditional college -- for example, the employer may pay for part time study or distance learning courses -- but there are a lot of options other than borrowing a ton of money to help move toward a graduate degree.</p>
<p>It seems to me that the problem with the students profiled in the article is that they simply don't see or understand the options that they have. A person who is making $65K a year but chooses to only make the minimum payment on a $20K student loan, and then bemoans the lack of ability to pursue a graduate degree is simply an individual who is not managing money or planning well. </p>
<p>3. Something to "fall back on".
The problem with training for something "to fall back on" is that it often involves studying for something that the person has no passion for -- and then it doesn't really lead down the right career path. Instead of opening doors, that kind of thinking can close doors: I feel kind of sorry for adults I know who are unhappy with their careers, but feel that they are stuck doing with whatever they have trained for and are afraid to try something new or creative. Fortunately, I know a great career counselor I can send my lawyer friends to, who does a great job in helping people understand how those lawyer-skills transfer to just about any other career imaginable. </p>
<p>The point is: its best to figure out what you want to do, and then go about figuring how to get into that field. If further training is required, then of course the person should get it -- but to get the training in something that the person is not interested in as a "fall back" position is distraction, detour, and unnecessary expense that is going to detract from the person's ability to pursue their real goal. </p>
<p>4. Doctor, lawyer, Indian chief. One of the biggest myths: you don't have to fit a professional category in order to develop a rewarding career. It would take me 20 minutes to explain to anyone all of what I do these days to earn my living... in fact, it is really difficult for me to come up with an appropriate title. Sometimes I tell people I'm a "consultant" and sometimes I say "writer" and some times I say "web designer"...and not one of those labels adequately describes what I do. But the people who work with me know exactly what my responsibilities are and what I can do... its just one of those situations where when people want me, they ask for me by name. </p>
<p>I admit it was somewhat disconcerting when I went from having a clear descriptive title ("lawyer") to working at something that couldn't be so easily explained... but that's life. It would take me a while to explain exactly what my son does, too (I keep getting it wrong and he keeps correcting me). </p>
<p>The way you get into this kind of multi-faceted career profile is simply by working. You kind of establish a reputation of being good at certain things and at the same time you build a network of people who have worked with you, and someone offers you a slightly different type of work that expands on your skill set... and so it goes. </p>
<p>=============</p>
<p>So - to Steel: quit worrying, and let your son figure this out for himself. Your son is right; you are mistaken. He will get out of college with his degree in psychology, get a job, and learn on the job. The job he gets with that degree may not have anything to do with psychology -- but it will be gainful employment that will pay him better because he happens to have a college degree. Depending on whether or not he likes the job, he will figure out what to do with the rest of his life and career. It's going to be o.k.</p>