He never want to see STATS ever again he likes Calculus. I have no idea what he wants to do as he won’t talk to me as I have tried. He has said he has know idea what he wants, but did like coding and drafting. I had know clue what I wanted at 16 either. @dreadpirit Yes, I think this Calculus is like a PRE AP. He is taking both AB and BC next year.
There’s a big difference between a student who takes pre-calc as a senior, and a student who takes calculus lite as a junior, and then doesn’t take BC Calculus as a senior even though he could. Students who are aiming for STEM majors look unserious if they could have taken calculus as a senior but didn’t.
I’m with Thumper. There’s more than 1 kid in a top engineering school without Calc in high school let alone the AP curriculum. I absolutely don’t think kids look “unserious” if they don’t take Calc in High School. My son’s sequence prior to Engineering school was: Algebra I in 8th grade. Algebra II, Geometry, Trig, and AP Statistics in high school. So no Calc until freshman fall in engineering school. It’s not easy because so many, many kids in the uni test into Calc I even with high school Calc, and if a kid can fit in Calc in High school even if they retake it in college I’d recommend it if they want to give it a whirl because it makes freshman year alittle easier… BUT it’s not going to keep a kid out of engineering school if they have a good high school record, decent test scores and a good reason why they are wanting engineering school.
Did the OP say he was going to be a STEM major? I know s/he said he’s in a STEM academy, but I don’t see where the major is indicated.
Romani’s point is…the parent says the kid hasn’t really set a path for a STEM major. And this kid is currently taking calculus.
I’m not sure I see an issue here. He has plenty of math to meet the admission requirement for almost any college.
AB is a slower paced (relative to college) calculus (about a semester of what is covered in college calculus), while BC is approximately college pace calculus.
If “regular” calculus is slotted as a less rigorous course than AB, then it presumably covers even less in either breadth or depth (possibly like a semester of “calculus for business majors” course in college).
Not taking math in the senior year is one of the biggest reasons why students place into lower level math courses in freshman year. Just about every college / university has a math placement system, and most of them require you to recall factoids about algebra and trig. So, if a student takes a decent AP Calc in senior year, at least they’ll keep their skills sharp to do okay in the math placement test. Even non-Stem majors have to take the placement test, since math is required as part of the General Ed core. No one wants to be stuck in a lower level, or even worse, noncredit, math course in college. But it happens a lot, because
a) the student didn’t take the placement test seriously and/or b) forgot most of the alg./trig due to a year or more lapse from high school math.
Also, not placing right into Calculus 1 in college can put a STEM student off track. Taking that AP Calculus in high school just leaves a lot more choices open once in college.
On the one hand, it’s certainly possible to begin with Calc I in college as a science or engineering major. On the other hand, these days essentially 100% of the students in the honors science courses at my university have taken AP calculus in high school. The introductory honors-level science courses are calc-based (except for biology). Personally, I think it is tough to take vector calculus and the physics E&M course at the same time, even if the math is listed as co-requisite for the physics class. Both classes are typically required for engineering majors. In a lot of universities, starting with Calc I and taking physics “on time” leads to enrolling in vector calculus and physics E&M at the same time. The other option is to delay physics until the right math background has been acquired, and take an extra year to graduate (depending on the university–some places this can be avoided).
Many science and math majors have sequential course lay-outs, with prerequisites that are “true” in the sense that the prerequisite is really needed in order to succeed in the next course. Sometimes the courses are taught only once per year, so it’s important to be on track.
Some of the students in Calc I in various colleges have taken Calc AB or even BC in high school. This may affect the way that Calc I is taught there. I think there was a post on CC recently from the parent of a young man who was the only one in Calc I who had not seen the material before.
I almost failed Algebra 2 as a junior and breezed through college and grad school. It really depends on what you’re going to be taking in college. Not taking math as a senior won’t be an option for either of my kids, since it’s required that they take four years. Not a problem for either, especially the oldest (will probably major in math; obviously got the genes from someone else).
@momofthreeboys,
I actually did not realize that there are kids who are admitted to engineering programs who have not taken calc in HS. I’ve learned something new today.
As for the op, it depends on what type of major kid wants to do and maybe how selective the college is for STEM.
For a highly selective or moderately selective college that excels in stem, ap calc Ab seems like a necessary prereq. My perspective may be skewed, but at my kids’ elite private HS, the “slow” math track finishes with ap calc ab in sr yr.
As for which ap to take, ap calc ab or ap calc bc, I can’t remember for sure, but I think the ab covers 1 semester of college calc and bc covers 1 year of college calc (or is it 1/2 semester and full semester). Anyhow, if kid is worried, can take ap calc ab instead of bc in sr yr.
Again, if kid leans toward humanities, then probably not necessary to take ap calc ab and could take a stats course instead:
Yes, it’s necessary to take Math senior year. I think it’s important to take math all four years of high school. Which math one takes senior year, due to tracking, is less important than continuity of math education. It especially looks odd if a strong math student does NOT take math all four years of high school.
So he wants to continue math? Then what’s the problem? I highly recommend taking Calc AB/BC senior year. D is taking such a calc class and yes, it takes up a lot of her schedule… She’s not planning to major in math/physics or engineering or even economics. She didn’t apply to any elite schools where BC may be standard among applicants. However, she enjoys the class, likes the challenge. (she says doing calc problems relaxes her). I am sure your son would enjoy the class too.
@SAHMof2, it sounds like you have two different goals. If your son wants to go to a top school, he will need 4 years of math. But if he isn’t sure what he wants to do in college, and wants to use his senior year to explore topics of interest rather than simply building a resume, that’s what I vote for. It might hurt him in admissions to say, UC Berkeley, but it will only help him in figuring out his interests.
This is the approach my son took this year. He decided not to take a 4th year of Spanish or science so that he could add more music and drama classes to his schedule. And yes, it did seem to hurt him in the applications process, because he was deferred from Brown, his ED school, but this was a risk he was willing to take, with our blessing.
If you look at the course plans for engineering at many universities, they start with calculus 1.
Stanford expects that engineering students will start in Math 41 if they do not have AP credit:
http://web.stanford.edu/group/ughb/2014-15/CE_PS_Dry_1415.pdf
Math 41 is first quarter single variable calculus (though accelerated):
http://stanford.edu/class/math41/
Berkeley expects that engineering students will start in Math 1A if they do not have AP credit:
http://engineering.berkeley.edu/academics/undergraduate-guide/academic-departments-programs/civil-environmental-engineering
Math 1A is first semester single variable calculus:
https://math.berkeley.edu/courses/choosing/lowerdivcourses/math1A
It certainly can be advantageous from a schedule flexibility standpoint to start in a more advanced math course (that allows starting physics earlier, which allows starting engineering courses earlier). But it is not required, so a student and parent need not think that s/he is shut out of engineering due to a math placement decision made in 7th/8th grade that puts him/her on a track to take precalculus in 12th grade.
UCBA hit it on the head. Our engineering major kid took calculus in college. So did lots of other engineering majors. It’s not the end of the world if you don’t have this in HS.
But she did take math all four years in HS. Her last HS course was precalculus, because we denied her the opportunity to be accelerated in 7th grade.
One of my kids did not take math in 12th grade. But she (1) had already completed BC calculus, (2) was automatically given credit for the most rigorous curriculum possible because she was an IB diploma candidate, and (3) did not intend to major in a STEM subject.
The OP’s kid is in a very different situation.
Calculus – preferably AP BC calculus – is a fundamental necessity for STEM majors. Getting this course out of the way in high school gives the entering STEM college freshman more flexibility in choosing courses. Also, not taking this foundational course in high school, when the opportunity is available, might look weird to admissions officers if the student is planning a STEM major.
If your son is looking for additional opportunities to explore new subjects, could he drop his foreign language instead? Or could he get some course out of the way in summer school to free up a slot in his 12th grade schedule? I can understand why a student might want the chance to explore. In fact, this was part of my daughter’s rationale for not taking math in 12th grade. She wanted the chance to take AP Economics outside the IB program, and not taking math freed up a slot for this course. This turned out to be a good decision. She loved economics and ended up majoring in it in college. But she was in a situation where the lack of 12th grade math didn’t hurt her. Your son isn’t.
My kid dropped foreign language after 10th grade when she completed honors Spanish four. She took culinary arts…,and loved it. And, oh my, she still got a college degree.
I only took 3.5 years of science in high school (my .5 credit was junior year and something like environmental science). I took stats my senior year instead of Calc BC.
Still went on to get my BS and went into a Master’s in a quanty field despite not taking math in undergrad.
Honestly, it is not the end of the world if he wants to use his senior year to explore. And, I’ll point out again, I still see no evidence that the OP’s son wants to go into a STEM field.
I don’t understand what the problem is. He likes Calculus. It will be good for him to take AP Calculus if he is able to. He is apparently taking AP Calculus next year. Problem solved.
I’ve never particularly been a fan of making schedule decisions based purely on what college admissions will think of him because he will certainly be able to get into college without taking calculus. But I would discourage students from taking less than four years of math in high school (unless they are a very strong math student who was accelerated to a high level and is unlikely to forget the math he learned in high school) if he will have to take math in college. Taking AP Calculus in high school will make taking calculus a lot easier for him in college, if he does have to take it. If he takes the AP test and is able to skip Calc I and/or II, then he may be able to take other interesting major courses earlier. Even if he doesn’t want to take AP Calculus, I would still recommend he take some sort of math course so he’s still keeping some math skills active instead of taking a year break in math before trying to pick it up again in college (in a new environment that is possibly faster and/or more test-based than he is used to).
If he hates math and is planning on entering a field that won’t require calculus, then I don’t think it’s as much of an issue.
What would you want him to take instead of math?
There is a huge difference between not taking calculus and not taking four years of math. Your daughter’s situation is not comparable to the OP’s son.
The problem is the OP seems to think all AP courses are bad and wants to pull the kid out of the proposed schedule. This kid sounds like they might like comp sci, architecture, possibly civil engineering - he’ll need calculus for any of those majors.
It’s not a problem arriving at an elite college as a prospective STEM major without calculus. The problem is whether you’d be able to arrive at an elite college as a prospective STEM major without calculus if you could have taken calculus senior year and didn’t; you’d need a darn good reason why you had the opportunity to take a hard class, but didn’t take it, or the admissions officers would throw your application in the reject pile.