@traveller2013 : wow. I actually hoped you were looking to have some actual dialogue.
Do you really fail to understand how your fine would have the potential to hurt more men than the current rules? No vetting process, no nothing – except seeing if “suspicious circumstances were present.” Someone accuses you, you were alone together, you’re fined. That doesn’t protect men. That opens more men up to arbitrary punishment.
Funny. You’d think the stress of knowing you’re much more likely to be raped than the guy is (or much more likely to be raped than the guy is to be falsely accused of rape) would be much greater than that. If this is something that makes you so anxious that it is disrupting your college career and harming your health, you don’t need to create some random fine that hurts men. You need to see a counselor.
When people say, “She was really drunk, but she came on to me and seemed like she wanted it,” expecting that to be a valid excuse, it’s because they don’t see it as rape. If they knew it was rape, I’m not saying they would have still done it, but now they know to lie. For some people, it will be like that. But for others–those “good guys” you’re talking about-- knowing the law means that they won’t do it in the first place. I know the law won’t catch rapists (well, technically it will catch the rapists who were honest because they didn’t know it was rape). I’m saying that if people learn what is and isn’t rape, that will prevent rapes and assault from happening in the first place.
By “no” I mean verbal or nonverbal. If someone wants to rape you, no standard of consent is going to stop him/her.
Okay, you’re right. I need to specify more when I mean a verbal yes vs. any kind of affirmative signal, which is usually what I mean. The point is that if someone were following an affirmative consent standard, they would be looking for those positive affirmative signals. You don’t need those under a “no means no” standard.
Hahaha. I’d like to think most people aren’t so shallow. I’d want anyone to ask before touching me. I don’t even want my own family touching me without my consent. And I think we’re still thinking of two different definitions of affirmative consent. You’re locked into the version that only allows for verbal consent, while I’m thinking of a broader concept. I’m not sure of the exact wording in all schools’ policies, but I know they aren’t all solely relying on verbal consent.
Lol, I didn’t say that. I said, “If both parties trust each other to that extent, I think those kinds of consent are fine as long as both parties are coherent enough and comfortable enough to withdraw consent.” And then I said, “If someone could claim about an accuser, that he/she gave prior consent to be spontaneous and he/she was fully capable of withdrawing consent during, and he/she was actively, “enthusiastically” participating (which isn’t just “responding” to the sex), then it shouldn’t be considered rape or assault. But if someone accuses you of rape and #2 and/or #3 didn’t hold, then #1 isn’t enough.”
I think that if a guy likes a girl, he might interpret her body language in a more affirming way, lol. I also think that there are many people who can’t read signals like that, especially if they don’t have much experience with dating. To the rapist, the fine is large enough to be a deterrent, but to the innocent, it’s a “small fine?” Not the best way to teach people social skills, especially when you could have just asked. Though I wouldn’t consider an unwanted kiss to be at the same level as assault or rape by any means in such a context.
That’s also why it won’t be so easy to say, if there was upset body language, it goes from a misread signal to intentional assault. People don’t perceive things exactly as the person emitting the signal intended.
You’ve got a serious problem - false accusations aren’t just thrown around. If you’re worried about this, maybe you should look at the actions that are making you worry - if those are fine, there may be something else in play psychologically.
This thread is getting painful to read through - there are some legitimate issues here to look at when it comes to how these cases are handled, but your “solutions” are really unuseful. There aren’t any problems when everyone is simply reasonable affirmative - you don’t need consent every second, but you should be able t to communicate well enough with someone to know they want the intimacy too - if you don’t know, find a way to ask. There’s plenty of ways that I will save from this forum that won’t break a mood or moment, but in the end, consent is more important than a moment.
As I said initially, I think you have a worldview on this issue warped by something - this is not a normal frustration or worry, nor should it be to even close to this level.
Then change the rule to say what you just said instead of what it does say. Currently, you and your boyfriend could truthfully say exactly what you both do, and he would be expelled for rape. Those are the current rules. Why not change the rules?
I’m not angry at women. I’m angry at the people who made these rules, especially the ones who have no plans to follow them yet say others should.
So we agree that in a relationship, it is OK to not always ask, “may I kiss you”, and to back off when someone says, “I don’t feel like that right now”, and that we should ask before moving on to something new. Yet you say that if someone follows that, they are still rapists, but that the woman most likely won’t accuse him of rape because she has no motive. Is your boyfriend a rapist or not? If not, say so in the school rules. Exceptionalism is not fair.
You say the fine would hurt more people. How? You say women don’t falsely accuse. Does that change when there is a fine? Or do you mean that with expulsion, all a guy has to do is lie and he is acquitted? I don’t see how that ends rape. Rapists would just lie.
Being raped does not end your job prospects for life. Being falsely accused of rape is so emotionally damaging and stigmatizing you don’t even know. Innocent men commit suicide or go to mental hospitals when falsely accused. Yet you people are branding most men as rapists, including your boyfriend who you arbitrarily don’t charge. Rules are serious and should specify the actual behavior desired.
A person can’t rape if there’s “affirmative, conscious, and voluntary consent.” So if she consents to it, even if she doesn’t say it out loud, it isn’t rape. It’s the receiving partner that determines whether or not something is assault or rape. So the fact that they don’t ask each other for consent as often doesn’t make them rapists unless they aren’t consenting (in the sense of their state of mind). The rules can’t mandate anyone’s state of mind; it can only mandate their actions. Assuming consent can set someone up to assault or rape, and when you’ve only known someone for a day, you’re more likely to misinterpret than if you’ve been in a relationship for years. That’s why it shouldn’t be used as justification for non-consensual sex (again, referring to consent as the state of mind, not necessarily the words).
Not having a job is serious, definitely. But so are physical injuries, STDs, and unwanted pregnancies. Rape can also lead to depression, anxiety, PTSD, suicide, substance abuse, and social stigma. A person can be raped multiple times, but how likely is it that someone is going to get falsely accused of rape more than once, if even once?
I really don’t like playing this “which trauma is more serious” game; I really don’t. I don’t think it’s lost on us how devastating a false accusation can be. But when you say that we’re “branding most men as rapists” like we’re trying to burn them at the stake, you’re not doing anything to break down the system that’s causing the falsely accused so much pain. I truly believe that not all rapists are “monsters” or did it intentionally. I think that we as a society play a role in the perpetuation of rape with our archaic gender norms and not teaching people about consent from early on. But people still have an obligation to start correcting themselves by learning what affirmative consent is (in the broader sense) and putting it into practice. Consent shouldn’t be seen as a burden, and the laws that are overbearing to the point of making it a burden should be changed.
He’s not, because I consent and we back off when one of us doesn’t.
MODERATOR’S NOTE:
This thread has devolved into a debate between a handful of posters with too many hints/innuendos/unsubstantiated claims. I see no valid reason to keep this thread open, and so have closed.