Is being a girl/woman interested in engineering a slight hook at all schools?

Parents Forum
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So really, what I’m hearing is that this student should think very carefully before she applies anywhere as an engineering major. She isn’t certain she wants to major in engineering, but it’s the first choice of possibilities. She was involved in some engineering for girls activity in middle school, which is where she first got the idea. (And she has a decent, albeit short, engineering essay) She likes math a lot even if the SAT math score doesn’t reflect that. She got a 5 on the Calc B/C test last year. Don’t ask me about the discrepancy; I have no idea. She considers herself to be innovative, but most of her activities are high level sports, work, and service oriented. Her main essay is about a sports project she did (collecting used sports equipment and running a sports clinic for underprivileged children). So agree that this person hardly screams engineering.

The ACT was a one shot, no preparation deal.

She’s a straight A student at one of the better high schools around here, and her test scores are in the top 75% of the students there. School doesn’t rank. Student will have taken 5 APs and a number of honors courses, but school does not weight all the honors courses, so I have no idea about her weighted GPA in the context of her peers.

She simply lacks experience to know what she wants, to be honest. Her third choice major after several types of engineering is Poly Sci and she’s briefly mentioned wanting to attend law school. (Not sure what that’s about other than she’s really enjoying AP Gov) So she’s certainly not locked into the idea of engineering, but it’s foremost in her mind at the moment. Clearly, she will have to choose majors at the UCs and Cal States to which she applies, but at the private universities, she will have some flexibility, I think. Or is there little flexibility if you mark engineering from the beginning? My understanding is that if it aint working, you can move out of engineering, and even at Penn, where my middle son will attend, he can actually move into engineering at the end of freshman year if he’s got his ducks in a row. I assumed it was the same at other similar type schools.

Collective opinion is that she should really understand how difficult engineering is as a major before she checks that box, yes? Though I explored admit rates at STEM schools, I don’t think any would be on her list unless it was something like a Harvey Mudd because of the liberal arts context, but even then, it’s not the right fit.

What I do know is that she’s competitive and she works hard, and if she ended up in engineering, I believe she would work her tush off to succeed.

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It has almost nothing to do with what worked for people who are now adults and are settled in careers that started “back when.” And even little to do with what worked a few years ago. Or what worked for one kid.

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A student in engineering or considering switching into it should follow the engineering curriculum from the start to keep the option open.

A separate issue is whether it is easy to switch into or out of engineering from an administrative/capacity point of view. For example, at several UCs, some or all engineering majors are enrolled to full capacity, so switching into an engineering major is more difficult than switching out of an engineering major. At such a school, it is better to enter as an engineering major (with the option to switch out later if it is not what she likes), although that can also mean facing higher selectivity in frosh admission. This type of thing needs to be researched at every school, since switching to engineering or other majors varies in administrative difficulty.

A 5 on calculus BC as a junior means that she is an excellent math student (two grade levels ahead, top score on the hardest math AP test). So if math is her interest, there may be other math-based majors she may want to consider (e.g. physics, computer science, statistics, math). Note that any major is fine for a pre-law student; only about a fifth of LSAT takers are political science majors. Patent law would benefit from an undergraduate major in engineering or science.

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Miami – got to concur with Blossom. Not all engineers are alike and graduates of places like MIT and Cal Tech are going to stand out for top level engineering positions. But in addition to her points there are a couple more. 1) if the student is planning to go on to graduate work in engineering or science, that Ivy/Elite college background along with strong performance and research experience is going to be a major boost for getting into top graduate programs. 2) many engineering students discover when they get to college that they lack the passion or fortitude for engineering and pursue science or even the humanities. If a student limits him/herself to applying anywhere that has an adequate engineering program, the student may be cutting off options that would be present at a larger or higher caliber institution. In short, each student has to assess his/her own objectives and plan accordingly. That may mean an elite school or not.

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My kid who went to school in Michigan has worked for the same company since graduation. He has worked first in Texas and now Pennsylvania. His gf who he met at school has worked in Indiana and now Pennsylvania. They have friends working in Michigan, Minnesota, New York, Missouri to name a few. They are going to a friends cabin next summer because they are far flung.

Kid who went to school in Pennsylvania works in the same town that she went to school in. But her roommate lives in Dallas. D’s BF is still in school but is not planning on staying in the area so D will be looking for another job soon.

Yes, engineering can be regional but it doesn’t have to be and isn’t.

To the OP. Don’t sweat the small stuff, it sounds like she is a great engineering candidate. My D’s EC’s were music and sports, no STEM specific things.

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If she isn’t 100% sure on engineering I’d skip any school that makes it difficult to switch out like the CMUs or Columbias where a switch out is like a total school transfer.

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It is a total school transfer because Columbia School of Engineering is separate and distinct from Columbia College and Barnard College. Their respective admissions offices function independently.

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@LakeWashington Right. Same with CMU - that’s what I mean. (though Columbia refers to the switch as an “internal transfer” as does CMU)

There are universities (like Princeton) that don’t function that way. Changing majors is just that. It’s an important distinction to be aware of, I don’t think it’s obvious to everyone that Columbia SEAS and Columbia College are two totally different schools that do not let students move back and forth (though they can take classes at each).

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The thing is if you don’t start engineering as a freshman you are up a creek because the coursework is so sequential. She should investigate it, maybe sit in on some classes and if it looks good she should start off in engineering. It’s nearly always easier to switch out of engineering than into it. There may be a few exceptions (Columbia might be one for example), but I’m pretty sure it’s not a big deal at CMU (unless you want to switch into CS).

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The difficulty of doing an inter-division transfer varies depending on the school and destination division.

For example, at Berkeley, transferring from the College of Letters and Science to the College of Engineering is difficult, but transferring from the College of Engineering to the College of Letters and Science is much less difficult.
http://engineering.berkeley.edu/admissions/undergrad-admissions/change-college
http://ls-advise.berkeley.edu/fp/COCApplication%20Requirements.pdf

Since each school and destination division is different, this should be researched carefully on a school and division basis.

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Exactly. Ease of switching majors (out of engineering is what I was assuming) is a data point to consider, that’s all I’m saying.

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Thanks so much for the thoughtful conversation! This is very helpful. She knows, I know, that the reach schools are, well, a big reach, but she’s going for it, while still having match and safety schools on the list. We are focusing on her SCEA school. She attended sessions at her high school by all the big name schools, and she really liked Yale’s presentation best (she’s not visited), so that’s where she’ll apply early. She’ll send subject test scores sight unseen, and Yale won’t have the benefit (or not) of her December ACT score.

I really like the idea of Cornell for her, as their engineering m/f ratio is pretty balances at 42.5% female. If I calculated correctly, here are some others at top schools:

MIT (I just don’t know about MIT unless her new ACT is higher and subject test scores are good, and she likes the idea of a STEM school; MIT’s humanities courses are really awesome, too, according to my son) at 44.9%

Columbia 44%

CMU 35.7 %

Stanford 38.6 %

Princeton 39.1%

USC 36.1%

Interestingly, SLO is only 25.7% female in engineering.

Once SCEA is done, she’ll need to look carefully at all the majors of the UCs and Cal States (SLO and maybe Pomona) as well as her two non-UC/Cal State almost safeties, UMN and Chapman (which doesn’t have engineering, but her brother goes there).

I well know how difficult it is for a student who is unsure of their major. I just counted, and my middle son applied to 10 different majors over 23 schools! They all had some commonalities except for a few that were in left field because of a) a passing interest in metallurgical/explosives engineering, and b) trying to find an engineering major that had a higher admit rate.

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@sbjdorlo By some of the things you’ve mentioned about your D, she sounds a lot like mine! And my D is a freshmen at USC Viterbi in Mechanical Engineering. They definitely are looking to up their female ratio so I would say that being a woman interested in engineering, with the stats of course, absolutely gives you an edge. My D was similar to yours in that she knew she loved math and science so the natural progression was to go into engineering. She had no idea which direction to take within engineering though! We visited MANY engineering programs and USC’s appealed to her because the first thing the dean said was: “I know most of you have no idea what engineering really means. You’re just good at math and science and someone told you to go into engineering.” What a relief for my D to hear that! Then he proceeded to say that they just had to pick a direction on the application and then during freshman year they would all do what is called “Engineering Freshman Academy” and from there they could choose the direction that interests them most. I have to say that out of all engineering tours we went on, this was the only one to make my D feel not stressed or overwhelmed! She loves it and is SO happy she decided to go to USC. She also plays volleyball which you mentioned too. She could have played D2 or 3 volleyball somewhere but instead, she just joined the USC women’s club VB team. couldn’t be happier!

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@sbjdorlo You also mentioned that she’s interested in law…so is mine and almost picked Georgetown, Government major, instead of USC. She ultimately decided that a woman graduate from a reputable engineering school can write her own ticket. She will then consider law school after that and who knows? maybe a patent attorney?? I don’t think your D should be scared of the workload in engineering or be deterred because of some of the comments on here. My D was also a 4.0/4.7W student with many AP’s and except for her Intro to Mechanical Engineering class this first semester, the rest are easy for her. But even in the ME class, she has studied hard and beat the average on her recent midterm, making her very sure that she is going in the right direction!:slight_smile:

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That is so encouraging, @stephrass! And just FYI, this isn’t my daughter. :slight_smile: I work (purely by word of mouth and very part time) with students applying to colleges. This gal came to me almost accidentally about a week ago; I can’t say no because I love guiding students (I’m a credentialed teacher, but a homeschooler for my own kids).

She has already had her engineering interview at USC and really liked it. I’m excited for her! The amazing part is, apparently, she has rich relatives that will pay for her college, so she has no restrictions on where she’s applying! I love what you described at USC. I can definitely see her fitting there should she get in. Very cool. I will share with her what you said.

I wonder if we should still try to get the USC app done by the Dec 1 scholarship deadline, even if she doesn’t need money. Not that I would expect her to get anything necessarily, but who knows?

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@sbjdorlo I would definitely encourage her to apply early! We knew my D wouldn’t get a scholarship either and financially we knew we were in too high of a bracket, but when all was said and done, she ended up getting a $5500/year merit scholarship. That covers EXACTLY the amount of the meal plan! She would not have been eligible for this had she not submitted by dec 1st

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Thank you so mucI think this student is in range, but if you feel like sharing, that would be great. I think the sports are a plus for USC. I love that she’s an athlete that maintains straight As.

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I don’t think the California state schools can consider sex in admissions since they can’t consider race or other protected classes.

My daughter goes to a school that is only 25% female. It is not an issue in any way. I don’t know if they give ‘bonus points’ to female applicants, but I don’t think so. I do think that females at the school are treated the same as the males. There is a female student body president this year, and many of the honor societies are chaired by women.

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That’s what I was thinking, twoinanddone. Since they can’t admit by race, I figured they probably can’t admit by sex, either. Still, I think she might have a decent shot at SLO for one of the majors that is less trodden. She’s pretty open about which type of engineering might be of interest to her.

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I had lunch with a friend the other day. Her daughter is at Cornell, as a pre-med major in Biology. This kid is absolutely smart, had a perfect score on the MCAT, and she was shocked to learn that the majority of the top students in Cornell engineering programs are all male. The majority of males are slow to get started when it comes to matching wits with females, but it seems in college, the male mind is finally able to compete and excel. I think others have said that bright females really need to be on their game in engineering programs in college, and it seems it is true.

Take a look at the IETF chair board owners, and you’ll see that females are there, but the majority of the super bright minds in internet engineering around the world are males. My engineering team is half male/half female, but the top 25% of the team is dominated by male engineers.