Is Bicker Really This Unappealing?

<p>My S is deciding between Princeton and some other colleges and in the course of his research is getting more and more concerned about the eating club scene and what it seems to represent about the social atmosphere at Princeton. The bicker process sounds sophomoric and exclusionary. There are a series of four articles in the Daily Princetonian on eating clubs, including one from February 10 (<a href="http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2006/02/10/news/14417.shtml)%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2006/02/10/news/14417.shtml)&lt;/a>, excerpts of which include:</p>

<p>“Those interviewed stressed that their experiences do not necessarily reflect the totality of the experience for every person who bickers. The stories do, however, give a flavor of a system that varies widely from club to club. .... Prospective Cap members filled out forms with their names, addresses and interests, and then posed for photographs to assist members in connecting stories to faces during discussions. Meanwhile, current members lined the center staircase, ready to sweep bickerees away for interviews and games. The main guideline was that members interact with students they hadn't yet met….One sophomore described the games they played, ranging from two truths and a lie and Catch Phrase to sex charades and a wrestling tournament. Throughout these sessions, members fired questions at them from why they wanted to join Cap to whom they would hookup with in the club. A particularly memorable event for some came when prospective members faked orgasms on top of dining tables, as members stood and watched… "A friend of mine and some people ended up walking to a store and trying on clothes ... as cross-dressers. Everybody thought it was pretty funny and had a good time."… On Sunday afternoon, prospective members gathered in the front hall of University Cottage Club and wrote their names on small note cards. Members then grabbed multiple cards and took bickerees away for group interviews and games. "The worst thing I had to do was pass a goldfish in my mouth," one sophomore bickeree said. Two lines of six prospective members raced each other to pass the flapping orange goldfish from mouth to mouth. No one was forced to eat the fish, the student said. Many aspiring members participated in other eating contests. One bickeree's favorite activity was handless Jello-eating. Students were given the choice to play dirty charades, similar to the game at Cap, in which they mimicked different sexual positions and acts. In between playing games, members gauged students' interest in Cottage by repeatedly asking them why they wanted to join and what their other interests were. One awkward situation was the final night of "spotlight" Bicker. In this activity, prospective members had a spotlight shone on them — effectively blinding them to those around them — as members rapidly asked questions such as, "Who do you think is the best-looking member?...After the three days of Bicker ended, the members of each club gathered for two to three nights, sometimes into the early morning, to make decisions about prospective members.”</p>

<p>Can any Princeton students or alums give some perspective on what sounds to me like a less than appealing experience? Is membership in the clubs important to having a good “Princeton” experience? Are the students not in the eating clubs the nerds and outcasts? How does entry into the non-selective eating clubs work?</p>

<p>Every year Princeton loses a certain fraction of its admits who find this stuff off-putting. Its probably the principal reason the Princeton RD admit rate is markedly lower than Harvard's and Yale's (at 52%) despite offering competitive - and often <em>more</em> than competitive - financial aid.</p>

<p>The people in admissions are well aware of the situation and are distressed about it, but raising the issue is like touching the third rail with most Princeton alumni - and even with certain students who - after all - do not belong to the subset of admits who turned Princeton down on this account alone.</p>

<p>I'm not a sophomore yet and haven't gone through the eating club process, so I can't attest first hand to how bad bicker is. However, when applying last year, I was also worried about bicker and the atmosphere it creates around campus, but the fact of the matter is, if your son doesn't want to get involved in such activities, he doesn't have to. Only two or three eating clubs have a process as the one described above. Most clubs are sign in. In other words, you grab a group of buddies, and you all decide to sign your names into an eating club. That's it, and it's what the majority of students opt for. You most definitely won't be considered a nerd or outcast if you don't bicker. A great number of student look down on the process, in fact, from my first hand experience.</p>

<p>Additionally, by the time your son is a junior, he won't even have to sign into an eating club if he doesn't want to. Some of the four year colleges will be newly opened (e.g. Whitman) and he can stay in the residential college system and have his meals in the dining hall, thus bypassing the eating club culture altogether. I'm considering this option myself, as are a number of my friends.</p>

<p>And by the by this new person with one post quickly followed by Byerly could just be Byerly doing his bit to make sure he maximizes Harvard's yield so he can advertise it yet again next year. Beware false logins. Watch for certain turns of phrase.</p>

<p>Bicker is stupid at some clubs. Many things kids do are stupid. Most things that happen at Princeton are not stupid. End of story.</p>

<p>Thanks for the input. My S knows that there are alternatives but he has the sense that the mainstream track is to try to get into a selective club and that being accepted is a measure of "success". He's not the personality type to put up with any of the initiation antics (and thus probably won't try and/or doesn't have a chance at being accepted). But he also doesn't want to feel that if he shuns it he's not going to enjoy or thrive at Princeton.</p>

<p>You are letting conspiracy theories get the best of you, Alumother! </p>

<p>Perhaps, once Princeton obtains a critical mass of "green-haired people", and the new Harvard/Yale style colleges are in place, the anachronistic "eating clubs" will wither away of their own accord, wouldn't you agree?</p>

<p>the bicker process is really very tame, especially when compared to fraternity and sorority rush at other schools. the process is overseen by the interclub council (ICC), which ensures that it remains "dry" and free of hazing. remember, too, that half of the clubs employ a non-selective admissions procedure whereby any interested soph can simply sign a form to become a member. and all students, whether members or non-members, can and do avail themselves of the parties thrown by the clubs every weekend. the yale daily news actually had a fairly balanced profile of the eating club system in its tuesday issue. if you have any further questions about the system, feel free to ask them here or by PM.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.yaledailynews.com/article.asp?AID=32479%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.yaledailynews.com/article.asp?AID=32479&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I think people are taking this really seriously. The alumni who interviewed me was part of an eating club and said bickering is a fun thing and it's not like anyone looks down on you if you don't join an exclusive eating club... he also said his eating club is not as elite as it used to be. :p</p>

<p>There are options at Pton other than eating clubs. My d and her friends have no interest in their exclusionary practices and look forward to being a member of a residential college for 4 years. The administration is doing everything to encourage this. Eating clubs are not a reason to reject Pton.</p>

<p>For those of you following the thread, you can nearly count on this being a case of Byerly talking to himself with multiple aliases and trying to denigrate other schools. (For some reason Byerly particularly likes to play on the Princeton pages!)</p>

<p>However, if you are for real, ephesus (and not just an echo of our constant companion, Byerly) then please check out the stories that the Yale Daily News has written about Princeton's Eating Clubs, Harvard's Final Clubs and Yale's Secret Societies. I think you'll find that the Yale students actually found the Eating Clubs to be rather open and egalitarian, particularly in comparison to Harvard's Final Clubs. Here are the links to all three articles so that you can do your own comparison. I'm also repeating some remarks I made earlier in regard to the clubs. I hope you find all of this useful (even you Byerly!)</p>

<p><a href="http://www.yaledailynews.com/article.asp?AID=32489%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.yaledailynews.com/article.asp?AID=32489&lt;/a> = concerning Final Clubs at Harvard</p>

<p><a href="http://www.yaledailynews.com/article.asp?AID=32518%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.yaledailynews.com/article.asp?AID=32518&lt;/a> = concerning Secret Societies at Yale</p>

<p><a href="http://www.yaledailynews.com/article.asp?AID=32479%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.yaledailynews.com/article.asp?AID=32479&lt;/a> = concerning Eating Clubs at Princeton</p>

<p>"It seems to me, however, that the eating clubs are the exact opposite of ‘elite’. If they are meant to be exclusive and vehicles for social stratification, they are doing a very poor job indeed. In fact, nearly 3/4's of all Princeton juniors and seniors (plus a large percentage of the sophomores during their spring semester) belong to the clubs. Furthermore, students of all classes tend to show up at the open parties (though drinking age limits are observed). It’s difficult to see how a phenomenon so widespread and open to anyone who wishes to participate can be said to be ‘elite’. On the contrary, I would say that it is clear that they are rather 'common'. They're also a lot of fun for most students. The facilities are beautiful and they offer a full range of activities including community service. For those who do not wish to participate as full members, there are also social memberships which are much less expensive and even those juniors and seniors who have no formal connection with the clubs whatsoever often show up at the parties. </p>

<p>So, yes, you are correct in saying that the eating clubs are a far more important part of Princeton’s social scene than the Secret Societies are of Yale’s. The flip side is that they are also far more open and far less ‘elitist’ than those societies and Harvard’s Final Clubs (thus explaining why the national media take so little interest in them compared to organizations such as “Skull and Bones” and “Porcellian”). </p>

<p>I have ambivalent feelings about the clubs and was not a member of any of them, but I attended plenty of parties and generally enjoyed them. Calling them elitist, however, is a little like calling membership in the YMCA elitist. It just doesn’t make sense. There are far too many members and it’s far too easy to participate for such a label to be justified."</p>

<p>How is any of this unappealing? The eating club system was one of my favorite things about Princeton when I was in HS.</p>

<p>BTW you didn't mention what other college is more desirable than Pton. For example, Pton offers substance free dorms. My d has never walked into a bathroom full of barf or had a room party go all night next door like many of her high school friends at other schools. There are many colleges (including some elite schools) that don't offer sub free housing like Pton. Before you throw out Pton, walk through a sub free dorm hall at 10 pm and I bet you would say this is the kind of place for my kid. Can you say that about brand X?</p>

<p>Obviously there are those who find the "eating clubs" very appealing, and as we can see from this thread there are more than a few old Tigers and Tigesses who are quite passionate about the topic.</p>

<p>My only point - which not unexpectedly earns me a hostile response from the advocates - is that there are SOME who, unfortunately, avoid Princeton because the notion of "bickering" etc is unappealing.</p>

<p>The result is that, through a natural selection process, those who are OK with the concept enroll, and those who are not go elsewhere. This, over the years, explains in part why the "Princeton type" is distinctive - differing from the "Yale type" and the "Harvard type" more than the latter two do from each other.</p>

<p>All are excellent schools, but there ARE differences.</p>

<p>I do in fact believe that we will see a lessening of the role of the eating clubs as the 4-year residential college program takes effect. And I believe this change will support Dr. Tilghman's course towards an increasingly diverse student population and campus culture. Me, as an old hippie, I'm all for that. I was not a club type, although I spent a year as a member because some friends joined. I quit and became an independent. </p>

<p>Here's what the eating clubs really do. For kids who are just plain good at navigating large hierarchical social structures, it's a great thing. Makes the project very clear. For the kids who just don't care about social structures, it has almost zero impact. The kids it can cause issues for are those kids who do care about hierarchical social structures but aren't good at navigating them. Those kids can wind up feeling excluded.</p>

<p>If you don't care about the clubs, or find them mildly annoying, or get rejected but don't care that much, or are completely happy finding most of your friends via an interest - newspaper, theater, community service, debate, academics, etc. - you will be fine. And for kids who don't like that sort of stuff? It's down the Street. It's away from the center of campus. There's lots to do on campus. You will have no trouble finding friends who also think the clubs are boring or stupid or whatever.</p>

<p>If you do care about the clubs and have the capacity to go through a process which may involve disappointment or even outright rejection, and have the capacity to figure that system out so you get a good outcome - you will be fine.</p>

<p>If you really really care and a sign-in club doesn't do it for you, and you want to try for a selective club, and can't endure bicker or truly suffer from rejection, then yes, the clubs are hard. Or, if you join one, and then decide you don't like the environment, it can be a little touchy until you extricate yourself. But by no means the biggest issue in anyone's life.</p>

<p>But almost no one finds the clubs to be a great problem. And many people really like them.</p>

<p>That is the honest answer.</p>

<p>I can't say anything about the finals clubs at YH. My brother was tapped or whatever they call it at Harvard. He declined. So, no data. Sorry.</p>

<p>I am new to College Confidential -- I was pointed to it by another parent as a source of info. It sounds as if there is a long history that I know nothing about between some of the posters. It also sounds as if the eating club issue has been discussed at length before so I apologize if this is repetitive. However, this is all very helpful to me. It is hard trying to help a kid figure out what's best the best fit for his particular characteristics. Princeton sounds terrific in almost every way but he is fairly shy and is very concerned about the eating club scene and having to be figuratively (and apparently literally) in the spotlight trying to sell yourself to others . My instinct is that it would be crazy to reject Princeton because of the eating clubs but they seem to come up in all the guidebooks, etc. as a big deal. He is also coupling his eating club concerns with general concerns about the place being too preppy/conservative/rich. I am gathering info to try and help him get a better feel for the reality of the situation so that he can make an informed decision.</p>

<p>
[quote]
whatever they call it at Harvard

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I believe it is "punched."</p>

<p>wsox, if you are from Chicago, I think your D might be a friend of mine... I know one of her parents posts on CC.</p>

<p>I think Alumother's assessment is pretty accurate. Obviously, some people will have an issue with the system. But, the same could be said of secret society's and finals clubs. True, they don't have the same kind of prominance on campus. However, the same kind of student who will be really upset by not getting into a bicker club will be upset about either not getting "tapped" or "punched" or getting rejected from a society or finals club. And, at least in bicker, someone who gets hosed can still have the club experience by joining a sign in. The same cannot be said of those not invited to join a finals club or secret society; you're either into the system or completely outside of it.</p>

<p>regarding your son's preppy/conservative/rich concerns, ephesus:</p>

<p>preppy - 61% of your son's fellow admits to princeton's class of 2010 hail from public high schools, compared to just 30% from private (including prep) ones. this ratio compares favorably to those at just about all of princeton's peer institutions. </p>

<p><a href="http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2006/04/05/news/15079.shtml%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2006/04/05/news/15079.shtml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>conservative - just before the 2004 presidential elections, princeton students polled by the student newspaper expressed a preference for kerry over bush by a 62%-24% margin. just before this, a separate daily princetonian poll showed that more than 90% of donations from university employees in that electoral cycle had gone to liberal causes. the truth is, the student bodies, faculties, and administrations at ALL elite universities these days are overwhelmingly liberal. princeton's student body is somewhat less imbalanced than others toward the liberal end, but most regard this as a good thing, ensuring healthy intellectual/political debate.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2004/10/19/news/11141.shtml%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2004/10/19/news/11141.shtml&lt;/a>
<a href="http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2004/09/13/news/10683.shtml%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2004/09/13/news/10683.shtml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>rich - an ivy-league best 55% of princeton's class of 2009 qualified for and received financial aid. that said, princeton, like all private universities, could still afford to be a lot more socioeconomically diverse. but it's at the vanguard of efforts to that end.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.princeton.edu/main/news/archive/S12/71/57E37/index.xml?section=topstories%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.princeton.edu/main/news/archive/S12/71/57E37/index.xml?section=topstories&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>hope that helps.</p>

<p>Not meaning to step on your pitch about Princeton's preference for Democrats, etc, but what, exactly is your independent source for the claim that "an ivy-league best 55% of princeton's class of 2009 qualified for and received financial aid". </p>

<p>Its not the 55% I quarrel with, necessarily, but the "ivy league best" part. </p>

<p>I rather think you are quoting an early press release that was based on ... ahhh .. incomplete information.</p>

<p>Set me straight on this if you have a reliable source.</p>

<p>"A record 55 percent of the 1,229-member class is on financial aid, Dean of the College Nancy Malkiel reported at the Sept. 19 faculty meeting. That is the highest percentage at any Ivy League institution based on preliminary reports."</p>

<p><a href="http://www.princeton.edu/main/news/archive/S12/71/57E37/index.xml?section=topstories%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.princeton.edu/main/news/archive/S12/71/57E37/index.xml?section=topstories&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>do feel free to offer any evidence to the contrary.</p>