Is Bicker Really This Unappealing?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Princeton University
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<p>Ephesus, if your son is the kind of guy who is shy, happy with a medium or small group of friends, and dedicated to one or several interests, (and obviously extremely intelligent since he got into Princeton:)), he will really not mind the eating clubs. He will find his group, they will drink themselves silly on physics or classics or art history or math or biochem rather than on Everclear or whatever that stuff is, and he will be happy. </p>

<p>The preppy element exists at Princeton, and at Harvard and Yale. The preppies at Princeton are somewhat more 'Southern" meaning more pink trousers and fewer jeans jackets, but no worse no better on the elitist conservative thing.</p>

<p>I bumped into the preppy thing when I was there, joined a club as I said, realized it was not my thing, and quit. But the academics, I have never ever forgotten them. And I am still friends with my college roomate today and I went back to my 25th Reunion and almost cried when I saw the new student body there lining the P-rade route. How diverse - that's new. How enthusiastic - well, that's Princeton.</p>

<p>I'm not going to be a blind propagandist. As I say, there are those for whom Princeton isn't right. Just like my sister and brother didn't find Harvard to be the right places for them - too much swimming with the sharks. They haven't been back once. And for other people, Harvard is exactly right.</p>

22

<p>Ah..... a hometown report, including weasel words, and no subsequent confirmation. I'd hold off on putting that phrase on a special function key for a while, scottie!</p>

<p>I suppose we may have to bring in the accountants! From today's Harvard Gazette:</p>

<p>"...Harvard's financial aid program next year will be the most generous in its history with nearly $90 million in scholarships for undergraduates, a 6.2 percent increase over the past year and a 65 percent increase over the past six years. The new Financial Aid Initiative will add an additional $2.4 million annually. Two-thirds of Harvard undergraduates receive some form of financial aid, including scholarships, loans, and jobs. The average total student package will likely be more than $33,000, more than 70 percent of the total cost of attendance...."</p>

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<p>My kid, who went to public hs and is a liberal Democrat, has had no trouble making wonderful friends at Princeton. The advice students get on campus if they are interested in the bicker clubs is to look carefully at each one's bicker process when you are choosing, because it tells you a lot about the club. And although many students do seek entry into the bicker clubs, the sign-in clubs are also extremely popular. </p>

<p>The Street as a whole creates a "scene" at Princeton that my d found lacking at other schools, where (as the writer of the Yale Daily News article linked above points out) room parties are the order of the day. Movement from one club to another is very fluid. She is not one to spend the night drinking and loves that she can go to a central place and find a huge proportion of the campus, who talk, dance, play billiards, whatever. </p>

<p>Keep in mind also that the Street is a place where many upperclassmen eat meals but socially it is more of a late-night gathering place. Long before students go there they are generally going to other social events, performances, dinner on Nassau Street, etc. There is much more to life at Princeton than the eating clubs.</p>

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<p>aparent makes a good point. There is that feeling at Princeton that if you want to find some place where people are dancing, and flirting for that matter, you can. It is a late night scene when you are not a member - after 10pm. And you can go even if you don't belong. Perhaps the Street is the reason that Princeton has such a rumored high percentage of alum who marry eachother? Hmm. I never thought about it that way.</p>

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<p>typical nitpicking by mr. byerly. and another deliberately dishonest stat, with the two-thirds citation, as harvard last reported a figure of <em>50%</em> on aid to u.s. news. presumably, the "some form of financial aid" that the additional one-sixth of harvard students receive (i.e. two-thirds minus 50%) includes outside scholarships and voluntarily assumed campus jobs - not "true" institutional aid.</p>

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<p>Don't you see?</p>

<p>You are speculating about the Harvard report, just as you were speculating about the Princeton report. The only difference is that you take anything in a Princeton press release at face value, and assume automatically that Dean Fitzsimmons of Harvard is "dishonest."</p>

<p>Whatever....!</p>

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<p>“Here's what the eating clubs really do. For kids who are just plain good at navigating large hierarchical social structures, it's a great thing. Makes the project very clear. For the kids who just don't care about social structures, it has almost zero impact. The kids it can cause issues for are those kids who do care about hierarchical social structures but aren't good at navigating them. Those kids can wind up feeling excluded.”</p>

<p>From what I have heard, Alumother is spot on. While the eating clubs sound intimidating to many a high school senior, most students find them either easy to navigate or easy to ignore. At least as a freshmen, my child has chosen to ignore them and the Street.</p>

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<p>no, byerly, i was calling YOU dishonest, for citing a stat you knew to be "apples and oranges" with princeton's number. having previously cited u.s. news's best values rankings countless times before, with their 50% on aid number, you surely knew that.</p>

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<p>PDaddy's comment is sound. Just keep in mind that many students arrive at Princeton having been very studious high school students who were on the edge of the social scene because they were "too smart." At Princeton they are suddenly mainstream. Many of the very top academic achievers, campus leaders and fellowship winners at Princeton are eating club members. The clubs are not like the "popular crowd" in high school. And as students develop their capacity to navigate the social scene they are acquiring interpersonal skills that will be helpful to them in years to come.</p>

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<p>Every school may differ slightly in assessing its own level of financial aid in any particular year.</p>

<p>Your quoting of a bit of premature bragging in a Princeton press release last year as gospel does not square - as I have shown you - with:</p>

<p>(1) information in a more recent Harvard press release (link provided) which presented - but did not brag about - the relative level of financial aid, citing the remarks of Bill Fitzsimmons, Director of Admissions, or </p>

<p>(2) the most recent ranking of "best values" by USNews, which shows that while financial aid, overall is relatively equal at Harvard and Princeton, Harvard seems to be ever-so-slightly more generous.</p>

<p>That is ALL I have said. </p>

<p>And you owe me an apology for calling me "dishonest".</p>

31

<p>Byerly...you only look at anything that seems to promote your agenda. The fact is that your favorite school has the largest endowment (currently $25 Billion, up $5 b last year) and yet was loaning money to undergraduates as part of their financial aid package. Pton was the leader in eliminating that nonsense. I agree lately H with all of its bad press has been picking up the pace in financial aid by following the leader - Pton. A class act would acknowledge that truth and not ask for apologies. The slimy statement that H released and you cite implies they are taking credit for financial aid awards (some merit based) that kids earn independent of H. Very tacky! The kid who earned $500 from the local chamber of commerce or whatever shouldn't be included in H's press release.</p>

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<p>aparent - the skills kids acquire at the Princeton eating clubs may also have something to do with the Princeton tradition of developing business leaders. Eric Schmidt, CEO of Google, Meg Whitman, CEO of eBay, and Jeff Bezos, CEO and founder of Amazon.com, were all Princeton graduates.</p>

33

<p>My D has been accepted to Penn, Columbia, Yale, Pton,.. etc. and we've been looking closely at the Univ. newspapers to get an idea about the atmosphere on campus. It seems that the 'street' articles mostly (7 out of 10) address religion and several laud religious morality which I find to be too parochial. But at the same time, many of the other articles written by female students speak first hand to very real issues about 'sexual gratification', 'ask the Sexpert', and 'binge drinking'. Yesterday there was one article about how the students were drinking each others vomit, a student going to the emergency room with a concussion and so on. While I dont want my kids to be drinking peoples vomit I dont want them going to a school that forces their own definition of religious morality! Doesn't anyone remember the 60's or 70's? The role of college is not to dictate morality but to provide a safe place for students to experiment and grow. </p>

<p><a href="http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2006/04/06/news/15111.shtml%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2006/04/06/news/15111.shtml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>This is an interesting column in that it illustrates the two principal factors taken into account by top students who either (1) do not apply to Princeton, or (2) who, having applied, opt to go elsewhere. Those factors are: (1) uneasiness about the "eating clubs", and (2) the fact that Princeton is ED rather than EA or SCEA.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2006/04/07/news/15132.shtml%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2006/04/07/news/15132.shtml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I hasten to add that those interviewed by the Princetonian are also influenced by common negative images of Yale or Harvard that they pick up from here and there.</p>

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<p>Morel - the street section of the Daily Princetonian comes out once a week, and sometimes focuses on one aspect of student life. This week, it was religion. If you search the archives, you'll see that last week, it was about the arts at Pton, and the week before, about student writers. Religious themes are hardly a regular staple of the newspaper.</p>

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<p>good grief, MHG, the THEME of this week's street section was religion, just as the theme the prior week's section was the ARTS - see link. and no one's forcing morality on any students. the president of princeton is an atheist, for god's sake (pun intended).</p>

<p><a href="http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2006/03/30/arts/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2006/03/30/arts/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>Morelhigrd.....</p>

<p>How do you conclude that an article written in the Prince by undergraduates reflect Princeton's own religious morality. The administration and especially the higher ups are very progressive and hardly religious publicly. On the other hand there are many faith groups on campus and what you see in the Prince are articles from students in objection to some of the what they see as trash on campus. I can think of no other school that tops Princeton where kids will find a "safe place to experiment and grow".</p>

<p>F. Scottie....you beat me to it again!</p>

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<p>I found 7 out of 10 articles to be about religion- that is a fact. Last week's article about the arts has nothing to do with that.
No comment about the article link I listed?</p>

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<p>sure, it's a fact, but it doesn't prove anything - certainly nothing negative about princeton. but these two posts seem to be your first on this board, so i'm starting to suspect you're just flaming.</p>

40

<p>The actual Prince article on kids choosing schools in summary says that kids are still in the phase of judging on stereotypes and many of them know they need to visit to choose.</p>

<p>DECISION TIME
Tables turn, and students reject schools</p>

<p>By Michael Juel-Larsen
Princetonian Staff Writer</p>

<pre><code>James Tate, a senior at Satellite High School in Satellite Beach, Fla., sent in his admissions reply card on Monday, accepting Princeton's offer of admission. Tate had applied early action to Yale and had been deferred. Though he was ultimately rejected, he said it didn't matter anymore.

"When I first got deferred, I decided I'd rather go to a college that's going to accept me right from the starting point," Tate said. He added that he was ultimately won over by Princeton's campus and its focus on undergraduates.

Tate is one of 1,792 students to whom the University offered a spot in the Class of 2010. Though his mind is made up, many of his fellow prefrosh have long deliberations ahead before the May 1 deadline for accepting the University's offer.

One such student is Austin Clarke, a senior at Sidwell Friends School in Washington, D.C., who plays tennis competitively, writes for his school paper and is involved with the student Democrats. Clarke was admitted early action to Yale and admitted to Princeton regular decision; he was also waitlisted regular decision at Stanford, and he doesn't yet know where he'll go.

"I'm not at all committed to anything," he said in an interview yesterday. "It depends a lot on my visits, really. I don't know any other way to decide." Clarke said he has reservations about each of the three schools to which he applied.

"With Yale, it was New Haven that I wasn't so sure about; it had a reputation of being pretty run down," he said. "At Princeton, I'm not sure how [eating clubs] affect people's social lives and what underclassmen do in the two years they're looking to be part of clubs. And at Stanford, it was really just the distance."
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<pre><code>Ju Young Chung, a senior at St. Augustine High School in San Diego, Calif., is originally from Seoul, South Korea. For him, getting into Princeton was a dream come true.

"I loved the campus and it was my first choice," he said. "I never thought I would get in." Chung, who was deferred early decision from but later admitted to Williams College, said he was "90 percent sure" he wanted to go to Princeton.

"The name 'Princeton' just means so much, and I heard so many good things about Princeton, that I just don't think I can go anywhere else," Chung added.

Alice Gissinger, a senior at Thomas Jefferson School for Science and Technology in Alexandria, Va., said her front-runners are Harvard, Yale and Princeton. She said that if she had to pick today, she would probably go with Harvard.

"By default, I might have to say Harvard, [because] the name is internationally known," she said. "I'm not sure, since I know I'll be working in the U.S. but I don't know for how long. Once I research a little more about grad schools, I might change my mind."

Gissinger, who was born and raised in France and moved to the United States while in the fourth grade, speaks three languages and is learning three more. She also got into the University of Chicago and the University of Virginia and applied to Yale's early action program. Gissinger said her parents want her to go to Harvard, because "that's what parents who aren't American say."

In addition to attending Princeton's prefrosh weekend — if she can get out of school — Gissinger said she plans to ask alumni of her high school currently at Princeton for references, adding that she also likes to solicit opinions from current college students in a less formal setting.

"When I come back [to colleges] and visit, what I like to do is talk to random students and sit in student unions and cafes and say, 'talk to me.' But not in a weird way."

Two of the four students interviewed said they would have applied early to Princeton if the school had offered early action instead of early decision.

"I couldn't [apply early to] Princeton because it was early decision, and that wasn't my type," Gissinger said. "Princeton was my midnight [application]; I did it the day before it was due. I kept my applications to all my schools even though I got in early, because I'm pretty indecisive."

Tate, who accepted Princeton's offer of admission, also said that a non-binding early action program "would have made a difference" in where he applied. With Yale's early action program, he said, "it wasn't like I was confined."
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