Something important to keep in mind - because of the open curriculum, engineering concentrators at Brown can take more electives than engineering students at other schools. My S is an engineering concentrator at Harvard, and along with the 22 engineering courses, he has 8 gen ed requirements and a semester long mandatory writing course all freshmen must take, which leaves him with…drumroll…one elective! He’s taken a fifth course most semesters to allow for more electives, but many engineering students will find that hard given the amount of lab work and difficulty of engineering courses. Harvard’s program needs an overhaul, and I know EE doesn’t attract many students. S is considering switching to applied math because it’s a much better program. I believe Fu and other schools relax the core for engineering students - something worth researching.
@spayurpets Thanks for the CS program details.
I know in recent years Brown has been investing in School of Engineering-- a new dean, a new building, a few new research initatives, … If D gets admitted, we need to visit the campus again to get my concerns about the stability of the program addressed.
@Gourmetmom It is interesting to learn that the Ivies are also struggling with introducing liberal arts/humanities content into engineering curriculum in a meaningful way. I know this has been an issue in most engineering schools for decades.
I think the characterization of it as a “stability” issue is wrongheaded; Brown just has a very deliberately different way of teaching engineering to its students. Some schools want to lock you into studying engineering as a freshman and you’re segregated off as an Engineer, never to be seen again except walking the halls of the School of Engineering. That’s what my sense was of the Columbia Fu school, or Duke. If your D is dead set on being an engineer as a senior in HS, then maybe that’s the right approach for someone like her. Brown lets you have the choice; choose to study to be an engineer, and you have those abundant resources available to you. Take advantage of the open curriculum and explore other areas of interest. You can also start off in engineering and decide that it’s not your cup of tea; no one is going to chain the doors to the exit. Try leaving the School of Engineering at Cornell or Columbia or Duke, and you might find a different story.
Regardless of how we examine this issue, the fact remains that universities, schools and departments strive to reach a generally stable student enrollment state. Departments/Programs would be forced to downgrade if the demand for them diminishes over time. I would not be surprised to learn that a lack of student interest in civil engineering at Brown was a contributing factor to the program’s demise. If my student wanted to study civil engineering at Brown five years ago, I would have advised her against it if I knew then what I know now.
That’s true, but it’s important how you count the number of students and present the data. Any suggestion that ASEE numbers show that Brown’s engineering school enrollment is declining or that retention is down is wrongheaded. You should look at the pipeline data showing year over year increase in the number entering engineer concentrators and in the number of graduating seniors with Engineering degrees and that should tell you all you need to know about stability: https://www.brown.edu/academics/engineering/about/enrollment-and-graduation-data
@spayurpets Thanks for the link. I am certain Engineering faculty/admin will be able to shed more light on this matter for me if we end up visiting the campus.
@emotive, just some friendly advice here: if you are out visiting Brown, you might want to leave your attitude at home, especially if your D hasn’t even been admitted yet. I’m sure your D is brilliant and the apple of your eye and all, but Brown has nothing to prove to you, and it’ll be up to your D to show that she is the right fit for their program.
@spayurpets Since you offered a personal view, let me do the same, though I have no intention to continue extending this conversation at a personal level.
You and I probably differ on our views toward the purpose of education and the roles that institutions of higher learning need to play helping shape minds.
I hear what you are saying about attitude and probably know why you made the assertion. I appreciate your openness but question your perspective on this matter.
There is always a problem interpreting non-factual statements made by people you don’t know. But let me give it a try. Are you suggesting that questioning, or a critical examination of Brown Engineering program is not acceptable? That I have to be thankful if my student is admitted? and commit her time and future to the program without having my concerns addressed? And if I did act as an advocate for students and ask questions to assess the health of a program, my attitude is out of bounds? If so, I suspect you are not an educator by profession.
Personally, I am not sold on any brand name and view universities as tools designed primarily to help students advance their knowledge, abilities and competencies. Regardless of the name, if it is not clear how a university supports that mission for a student, one owe it to the student to question and explore.
Universities have every right to screen students for fit. The same right should be extended to families, if they choose to exercise it.
Emotive, your daughter should visit Brown and check out the facilities, professors, etc. I think what’s putting us off is your suggestion that the engineering program isn’t “stable.” Perhaps we’re interpreting the word differently. Perhaps there is a different word to use to express your concerns.
Brown’s engineering department has been around for more than 150 years. The university is putting a considerable amount of money towards engineering. It has transitioned from a department to a school. A brand new building that is costing millions of dollars broke ground in the fall. Your suggesting that engineering isn’t stable – implying that it might disappear in the near future – is just absurd. Engineering is one of the most stable and secure concentrations at Brown.
It is true that there are more students taking Engin 30 (the freshman intro course) than end up with engineering degrees. Students drop engineering for many reasons. Is it mainly due to lack of support? I doubt it. Although I will say that Brown is not known to be a school that holds students’ hands – students must be proactive and seek out help. The advice and support is there – but the student must assert themselves to get it.
With about 100 graduates/year, engineering at Brown is a small department compared to other engineering schools. It’s a little quirky, entrepreneurial and interdisciplinary. I know a lot of Brown engineers – they are very successful and loved their studies.
@emotive, someone who wants to question the faculty “to get my concerns about the stability of the program addressed” and questions the enrollment numbers and accreditation of Brown is being a bit presumptuous. If you are as skeptical about the program as you seem to be, don’t you think the wisest thing to do is tell your D not to apply to go there? And if your D really wants to attend despite your obvious misgivings, do you think it’s a good strategy to gain admission to probe the faculty about the health of their program? There are legitimate, reasonable questions to ask of a school you are applying to, but implying that their numbers are suspicious or questionable is not the right way to go about it.
As you surmised, I am not a professor or educator (I’m presuming by the question that you are?) But both my parents are college educators so I grew up in a university setting. Even my father, a chair professor at another Ivy League university, wouldn’t be so arrogant as to walk into a school and presume to tell them how to run things, which, I’m afraid to say, is how you come off. If you get that moment you seek to talk to a Brown faculty member (which you likely will not get) please do your daughter a favor and let her be the one to talk. After all it’s going to be her education, not yours.
Going to Brown for engineering is like going to a Chinese restaurant for a hamburger.
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@Emotive If you plan far enough in advance, you and your daughter should have no problem meeting with a Brown Professor(s), touring a department or attending a class or two. There would be no connection between your daughter questioning professors and the admissions process, except that it may help her better inform her supplementary essays if she does decide to apply to Brown. Best of luck with your daughter’s search.
Fusion gourmet!
This thread is hilarious.
Of course Brown is a good Engineering school. Is it the best…that depends.
That personal answer is solely dependent on the person attending. Do you want to play the hunger games; work individually, sit in a room of 500 for intro classes, be taught by a grad student, and fight 200 others for a few research opportunities? If so, you should go to many of the “best” schools listed. For the vast minority of truly gifted and driven students, this is the place to be.
If you want to work more collaboratively, have access to professors, attend smaller classes and have options for both non-core classes and (God forbid) considering another major…schools ranked lower might be a better fit. For someone who likes engineering, but also might be considering an MBA or law degree, this might be a more useful education than going to the “best” engineering school.
Based on a dangerously small amount of information, Brown strikes me as a bit more collaborative than many. Fit is infinately more important than ranking.
Job recruiters tend to favor big State U for hiring engineers:
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052748703597204575483730506372718
This spring, Penn State graduated 13,381 students. Average total graduates from the Ivy League (rounding up) is 15,000. If you were a recruiter at a large US company, would you go door to door on Main Street, or shop at Walmart?
Statistics will always favor larger populations. The question on these boards isn’t where do employers hire, it’s “what can I do” and “where can I go” to optimize my chances. If State Universities were the answer, the Ivy League wouldn’t have single digit acceptance rates.
For one-stop-shopping for commodities, I prefer Walmart.
I doubt this site would exist if everyone wanted to be a commodity.
Why would anyone go to Brown to be a commodity? Most Brown engineers go on to start businesses or attend grad school. They are more entrepreneurial than the average big school engineers, and I doubt many spend their careers designing circuit boards. My S looked a few schools with large engineering programs. At one school that shall remained unnamed, the tour guide proudly showed us an enormous lab with rows and rows of soldering stations. He told everyone that by graduation they would have top notch soldering skills. I watched my son’s eyes glaze over. The program at Harvard is quite similar – many go on to business school or get involved in startups while still attending. Brown engineering isn’t trying to be like Penn State.
Here is the list of student outcomes ABET accredited engineering schools strive to attain. Clearly, engineering schools, big or small, are expected to do significantly more than just skill training.
Criterion 3. Student Outcomes
The program must have documented student outcomes that prepare graduates to attain the program
educational objectives.
Student outcomes are outcomes (a) through (k) plus any additional outcomes that may be articulated by the program.
(a) an ability to apply knowledge of mathematics, science, and engineering
(b) an ability to design and conduct experiments, as well as to analyze and interpret data
© an ability to design a system, component, or process to meet desired needs within realistic
constraints such as economic, environmental, social, political, ethical, health and safety,
manufacturability, and sustainability
(d) an ability to function on multidisciplinary teams
(e) an ability to identify, formulate, and solve engineering problems
(f) an understanding of professional and ethical responsibility
(g) an ability to communicate effectively
(h) the broad education necessary to understand the impact of engineering solutions in a global,
economic, environmental, and societal context
(i) a recognition of the need for, and an ability to engage in life-long learning
(j) a knowledge of contemporary issues
(k) an ability to use the techniques, skills, and modern engineering tools necessary for engineering
practice.