<p>Agree with all of those commenting that this being a first-semester Engineering freshman is absolutely germane.</p>
<p>Under a B average for that first term does not necessarily mean under a B average for the degree. Not at all.</p>
<p>He does need to take all steps to figure out how best to succeed in the curriculum - availing himself of study groups/partners, going to prof office hours, seeking out other texts in some courses…</p>
<p>If he’s making improvements in every class, that is big. </p>
<p>It is possible also that his final grades will be higher than he expects. It’s not unheard of, in Engineering/science/math classes, that the interim grades (quizzes, exams, homeworks, mid-terms…) are “raw” and the prof figures out the final grading curve at the very end. Can go either way of course, but sometimes it’s hard to know how you’re really doing in these courses until you are done!</p>
<p>Cs in first year engineering courses are not the end of the world, BUT if it were my kid, I would be concerned about whether he was adequately prepared for courses that require a knowledge of the subjects in which he got Cs.</p>
<p>This might be a good thing for him to discuss with his academic advisor or with his college’s advising office.</p>
<p>In general, if a student gets an A or B in Something 101, that student usually is adequately prepared to go on to Something 102 or to Related Subject 110, for which Something 101 is a prerequisite. But a student who gets a C may not have learned enough of the concepts to be ready for the next course – at least, not without a lot of help.</p>
<p>For example, if this student needs to take second-semester general chemistry after getting a C in first-semester general chemistry, or needs to take a physics course for which calculus is a prerequisite after getting a C in calculus, he may need help to get through it. Tutoring might be a good idea. In some instances, repeating the course in which the student got a C might also be worth considering.</p>
<p>“How would a C average in an engineering program at a good university be perceived?”</p>
<p>A C average, as in a 2.0, even in engineering would be considered very low. I think at any school it is very rare for any class to actually have an average of a C. Generally a C+ would be the lowest average you’re going to see, B- being much more typical. Even in weeder classes, you are rarely going to see an actual C average. </p>
<p>It’s definitely possible to get a 2.0 first semester, and then kick into gear and do much better from then on, but you got to do it. Don’t make “oh it’s my first semester, so it’s okay” be an excuse, just an explanation. I don’t know if this person in question (if there is indeed a person in question), is you or your son/daughter, or whoever, but make sure that the mistake of taking a 2.0 an expected and reasonable first semester GPA. It is quite low and actions need to be made to ensure it doesn’t happen again. </p>
<p>Make sure you spend more time on your classes. Don’t half-ass homework assignments even if they’re not collected. Go to office hours if you can, and always try to study with someone else, but avoid big groups.</p>
<p>Quest…it depends on the major. Speech pathology undergrads at MOST schools are not permitted to remain in the major without a B average. I can tell you…a sub B average as a speech path undergrad is NOT going to gain you admittance to a grad program which is required for certification and licensure in this field.</p>
<p>Also, at my college, undergrad speech path majors could NOT get more than two C grades. In fact, I knew a student who did NOT graduate with a degree in speech path…got her second C her final term in the program. She was warned and warned and warned. She had to stay an extra year and complete a major out of her minor.</p>
<p>This freshman I’m referring to was an IB diploma holder who came in with sophomore standing, so these were’t 101 level classes. His mom worried that he wasn’t ready an entire schedule full of upper level classes in his first semester. I know for a fact that he is expecting Cs because that’s what the averages of his tests and assignments came out to. He is not considering a curve, which might be relevant, since several students were asked (prior to grades) to consider other options.</p>
<p>zoosermom - any way to find out what courses we’re talking about here? Those of us who have been through engineering, science, and/or math curriculum might have a little more insight to offer.</p>
<p>zoosermom, this is such a common situation! I hope your friend’s S isn’t beating himself up too much. I used to teach at Princeton, and live in one of the residential colleges for freshmen and sophomores as a resident faculty member. The kids would come in all bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, eager to take ridiculous course overloads and accelerate to the max. They resented their advisors for not letting them do such things; most of them had never failed at anything, and considered themselves omni-competent. By October, many of them were in utter despair at the difficulty of the work, and the adults associated with the residential college were spending tons of time being reassuring and pointing kids to counseling and tutoring. By December, most kids had managed to pass their classes, though some just barely. They were chastened, much less arrogant, sometimes very down on themselves. Usually second semester was much better. They had a more realistic sense of their abilities, adjusted their courseload appropriately, sometimes changed their plans for their major. It’s all part of growing up but it is painful to experience and painful to watch.</p>
<p>Students who come in with advanced placement are often at a particular disadvantage, since they are placed with older students who aren’t having the same issues adjusting to college, and their faculty don’t think to adjust the workload to compensate. My S was in this situation this past semester; he had a ton of AP, and signed up for courses appropriate for upperclass students in his intended major. What do you know, they are hard, and he is having the usual first-semester problems balancing work and play. He is disappointed to be getting Bs, but I think he is doing just fine.</p>
<p>If the kiddo is receiving merit aid, he may be at risk if grades fall below their academic requirements (often a 3.0 or above). Some schools give kids a grace period to bring their grades up. </p>
<p>I agree with other posters that it can be tough when kiddos allow themselves to be placed into advanced courses that they may not be sufficiently prepared for, regardless of their HS coursework & how well they did there. Our S entered engineering in his 1st year at the U with 60 credits (mostly AP & a college course) as well but he & his U allowed him to re-take ALL the courses (which were largely review), but allowed him more time & flexibility to ease into college socially & academically. This was VERY common at his U–a few kids chose to seek exemptions & place into upper division coursework (skipping the low division classes) and some had a very tough time with it. I think this gave him a great deal of confidence as he moved into more difficult coursework–he told us he didn’t cover any NEW material until 3rd & 4th semester of his U! He didn’t mind and never tried to place out as he felt it gave him a VERY SOLID foundation.</p>
<p>It does sound like it would benefit this young person to speak with his advisor & instructors. It might be good if they considered whether he should scale back his upper division coursework and give himself more “breathing room.”</p>
<p>Zooser, this student needs to evaluate what he needs to do. Was it just adjustment to college, time management, poor study skills…OR was the material in the classes just plain too difficult.</p>
<p>Any and all of these issues can be resolved…you can improve study skills, manage your time better and take courses that are within your interests AND abilities. </p>
<p>He’ll be fine…first term for some students is VERY rocky. They just need to learn from the term.</p>
<p>My son chose this path in engineering freshman year. Definitely a high risk/high reward decision with a merit scholarship at stake. We discussed this at length so he had a pretty good idea of the pros and cons. What he didn’t know, nor could he have known, was how damn difficult upper level classes could be for an incoming freshman.</p>
<p>His decision paid off well in the end but it likely cost him a couple points in GPA. However, he now has the option of graduating early, earning a Masters or pursuing more classes outside his major and still graduate on time.</p>
<p>Where I work, an entry level engineer needs a 3.0 GPA to pass the initial resume screen. If I had to guess, I’d say the average GPA for graduating engineers is 2.8/2.9 and 3.4/3.5 puts you in the top 10% and eligible for Tau Beta Pi membership. I assume you need at least a 2.0 GPA to earn a degree. </p>
<p>A 2.0 first semester is not the end of the world, but I’d recommend a reduced course load with some carefully considered electives.</p>
He doesn’t actually have the final grades yet, he is basing his angst on his averages on tests and such, but I am going to give him your suggestions.</p>
<p>Maybe at one time, but not now. A 2.0 cum in engineering/STEM means you’re not only below average, but also may not be well-suited for the engineering/STEM track. Even at places known for their harsh grading curves like MIT, high school classmates studying/TAing courses there said most engineering majors graduate with cum GPAs between 2.3 and 2.75. Of course, this was from the late '90s and early aughts so things may have changed. </p>
<p>A 2.0 cum in any other major, especially in undergrad business* or education means one is either a super-slacker and/or woefully unprepared for college. Even at many elite colleges/universities…a 3.0 is doable by anyone with average or even someone with slightly below average intelligence considering the rants I’ve kept hearing from multiple Ivy Profs, instructors, and TAs/TFs. </p>
<ul>
<li>Only exceptions for this are elite undergrad b-schools like Wharton, Stern, Sloan, etc.</li>
</ul>
It’s not that unusual for the class average on tests in some of these courses to be very low - sometimes 50% or 40%. What’s important is where he’s at on these tests relative to the other students in the class. It’s possible to feel like you’re failing based on the tests and then find out that the final grade is decent after the curve where many profs curve to a B- (2.7) to C+ (2.3) range (I picked the GPA equivalents from UCLA - some colleges are different). If he has a way to determine whether he’s in the top half of the class regarding the test scores, if he finds he is, then he should understand he’s probably going to do okay.</p>
<p>I know many, many, many kids who squeaked through college by the skin of their teeth. I don’t even mean a 2.0 average. If all of their courses at all of their colleges were included, some of them could not even crack a 1 in gpa. They got their degrees by finally being able to get enough courses consecutively to graduate. This is really more the typical student than someone who gets through in a consecutive 6 years or fewer stint. </p>
<p>So, the answer is that the gpa can be a deal breaker in certain situations, but most of the time not. And a bad gpa can be mitigated later. I am living proof of this. My gpa was in the 2. area–not even that if I included some excursions at other schools where I outright ditched courses that were then given zeroes. When I looked for a job, no one cared about my gpa at the places where I was seeking employment. There are still plenty of such positions, in fact more of them than places that do care. I took night courses in business getting a number of certificates in business, accounting, benefits, insurance–all needed to move up in my field. I also got straight A’s. I went to small night school programs at what are considered 4th tier colleges to get those courses. When I applied to law school some years later after I had work experience and those courses I was accepted to a number of programs including the Uof Chicago. So, a bad transcript from college is not always an impediment to everything.</p>
<p>But if you have plans to go directly into certain programs that do check up on your transcript and weigh it heavily in the application process, you will be hurt if you don’t have top grades and you are applying to selective programs. </p>
<p>In my experience, a summa cum laude degree from a 4th tier school is not going to keep you out of selective programs, paired with outstanding test scores and a sterling resume. They’ll easily take a student with those credentials over a mediocre student from an ivy. My close friend’s daughter is an excellent example. She graduated from a non selective college and went on to a good but not top tiered law school, graduated at the top of her class in both and was offered the world even in these difficult economic times in employment choices. She was selected over a number of Harvard Law graduates. Yes, she did was below those who did as well as she did at Harvard Law and other top law schools, but her transcript certainly put her above the mediocre students there. So a strong transcript gives a student more options than someone who is mediocre upon first going into the job market. In subsequent years, what you do during those years is of more consequence than your college grades or where you went to school.</p>
<p>Some of the tougher engineering majors here have something like 2.75 average GPAs. I know a girl with a 2.9 who just got a job with Boeing.</p>
<p>That said, I think the OP misunderstands the concept of C being average. A grade of C suggests an average understanding of the material. B represents a good standing, etc. It’s not that the grade distribution puts most people at C.</p>
<p>zmom,
depending on how the COURSE is graded, the averages on tests may not predict the final grade.<br>
…Next line is devoted to distribution analysis, statistical mumbo jumbo, etc…</p>
<p>In any event, the first semester can and should serve as a wake up call to evaluate study habits, time management, course load, etc.</p>