<p>^This I can agree with, I mean I knew who from my class was going to get in and who wasn’t out of the top students to some degree. The hooks leave little wiggle room for unhooked applicants as you say. It’s pretty easy to tell when you combine writing skills, personality, stats, and EC’s (although there was this one girl who got into Stanford who was very unextraordinary, academic gap semesters abroad must be more interesting than I give them credit for). My only issue was your statement that class rank was the single most important factor- I could only really see that at UPenn probably.</p>
<p>Class rank is very important. The duke admissions officer who wrote that book even stated duke generally doesn’t take kids outside the top 3 places ( probably unless you attend a super competitive magnet high school)</p>
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<p>That elite private school doesn’t rank its students. They say that all of their students are exceptional, so ranking is a useless exercise.</p>
<p>The tippy top colleges then say they don’t care, they can figure out how the student WOULD rank based on the student’s GPA and the high school profile. </p>
<p>Then the tippy top colleges are free to admit students from the elite private (or savvy public) school, because they know that the school really is rigorous and that their kids will do fine, even if they’re merely in the top 25%. Because those students aren’t ranked, they won’t show up on the college’s statistic of “percentage of matriculating class in the top 5% of their senior class”. </p>
<p>Win-win for the elite/savvy high schools and the tippy top colleges.</p>
<p>What an argument. Imo/ime, rank can tip, that’s all. If it’s shown. Val is nice but you can be val along with 10 others, depending on your hs. The whole count of rank 1-5 can include well more than five kids, depending. </p>
<p>It’s been a while since I looked, but Princeton used to show the percentage of vals admitted, Brown still does: 19%. 1883 applied, 362 accepted class of '15. Sals: 14%.</p>
<p>My apologies, but I completely disagree with Waverly here. It’s wrong to suggest we can predict.</p>
<p>From what I’ve gathered, top 10% is the important cut off. Below that, you need to give a selective college a VERY good reason to admit you. Val and sal are obvious boosts too, but not being val or sal isn’t going to hurt you nearly as bad as not being top 10%.</p>
<p>Importance of class rank or lack thereof varies by college.</p>
<p>Go to the college’s web site and put “common data set” in the search box. Read the current one, section C7. It will tell you whether class rank is “very important”, “important”, “considered”, or “not considered”.</p>
<p>If you look at the number of Valedictorians that HYPSM take, it becomes pretty clear that class rank is a big deal.</p>
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<p>What would you suggest to be the minimum thresholds for someone applying to one of the super-selective schools (non-hooked)?</p>
<p>Rank 1 or 2 (based on your previous posts)
GPA > ?
Test scores > ?
Other criteria ?</p>
<p>This is a bad subject with me… as posted on other threads. Students play games with study halls and Pass/Fail options to increase their class rank. Unversities are catching on,
as are School Districts. Many near me are going “Magna Cum Laude” and “Cum Laude” recognizing top 1% and top 5 or 10 % only… no rank.
Got this email from my own School District this am:</p>
<p>"On Tuesday, April 17 at 7:00 p.m. ******** will hold the community next meeting. This meeting will focus our high schools and what is required for students to be prepared for success in college.</p>
<p>Among the topics to be discussed will be class rank and myths regarding college admissions. "</p>
<p>Too late for my kids ( they will start with kids in Middle School) but glad they are seeing the light.</p>
<p>So where does homeschooling fit into this?? Just curious.</p>
<p>For example: rural Texas school- graduates 200. They only offer 3 AP courses: AP Language, AP Chemistry and AP US history ( that is if they can find people to take it). Last year only 34 people took AP exams and only 7 of them made a 3 or higher. Average ACT for the high school is 20. So, how would a valedictorian do at this school?</p>
<p>Now consider a homeschooler from the same area. ACT 34. 5 on AP Stats. He will probably get a 5 on AP Chem and AP Gov this year if he tests as he is practicing. Next year he will have AP Econ, AP Calc and AP Physics. He is doing Spanish at cc and making A’s. Next year he will do Spanish 3 and 4 at cc as well as Eng I and II. </p>
<p>So he will not be valedictorian, but to me still seems to compete better than our local school.</p>
<p>Our school does not rank. They won’t tell you anything at all unless you are applying to a military academy. The only thing you might know is if you are in the top 10%, based on some piddly award at the end of the school year. Yet they are one of those schools that has like 20 Vals and Sals. Some of those kids are exceptional academically, some took no advanced or AP classes the entire four years. They don’t use weighted GPA in figuring that out either. It’s so dumb.</p>
<p>ucb, I do agree with Wav that it’s not as random as people think, but with my own take. Kids make lots of errors and omissions in their apps or their prep in hs. They assume it’s all about stats, leadership titles, (and sometimes random probability,) and forget that the college owes them nothing for being BMOC in their high school, no matter how much they impressed peers or that teacher They write lousy essays (often lackluster for an app personal statement; much like some 11th grade paper for English; or occasionally essays that reveal deep flaws in their thinking,) give cookie cutter answers for other questions (wanna know how many kids’ lives turned around when they started playing soccer???); don’t describe their activities to show any substance (prez of stu gvt, we decorated for the prom,) and mix up social ECs (walkathon once/year, with buddies) for more substantial community service and commitment. They want an engineering major, last took physics in 9th or 10th and are only now in precalc. Everything else they answer is about their interest in, say, art. Yes, even 4.0 kids. </p>
<p>There is no perfect avenue, but there are ways to get a reader engaged. And, plenty of ways kids blow it. So, the kid who either “gets it” on his own or gets some solid advice, well, it can show- and work. A lot of kids do get this help; not all follow it. And, adcoms are reading thousands of apps.</p>
<p>If only 7 gor 3 or higher, there’s a problem. Good chance the adcoms will know the school’s productivity on std tests or find it in the school profile. A val would stand out if he or she has rigor and stats- preferably 5’s. Plus the right pattern of extras and solid LoRs (smetimes even teachers at lousy high schools know how to write a great rec.) A val who got one of those 3’s generally won’t. The rigorous courses are clearly not and the grades may be inflated.</p>
<p>Homeschoolers who achieve high, have the extracurrics (including those that show they can integrate well with non h/s peers) can do well. It’s its own situation. Some h/s kids go well beyond an ordinary academic track and use their free time in exceptional ways.</p>
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<p>But what are the *necessary<a href=“not%20necessarily%20%5Bi%5Dsufficient%5B/i%5D”>/i</a> conditions to be even worthy of consideration? Waverly seems to indicate that an unhooked applicant to a super-selective school might as well not bother if s/he is not ranked #1 or #2 (and meets some unspecified thresholds in GPA, test scores, etc.). What would those other thresholds be? If those were well known, it would save a lot of time, effort, and application fee money for a lot of no-hope applicants to the super-selective schools.</p>
<p>Obviously, there will be many applicants who would not be obvious no-hope applicants, where the variability of essay quality and such is less predictable from an outside perspective.</p>
<p>No, I don’t mean that if you’re not one or two you shouldn’t bother at tippy top schools, but I do mean if you’re top 8% you shouldn’t without a hook. Kids spend far too much time on the apps for schools they have no chance at and blow their chance where they do.</p>
<p>I don’t think people realize how many unqualified applicants apply to top colleges, because colleges BS on the subject to keep the apps coming. About half of the applicants at Harvard have below 2100.</p>
<p>What would you say are the “don’t waste your time applying if you are below” thresholds (rank, GPA, test scores, etc.) for unhooked applicants at the super selective schools?</p>
<p>Rank: top 2% unless high school is tippy top, but most of those don’t rank
Score: below 2150</p>
<p>Other key factor: not most rigorous classes</p>
<p>Also realize it’ about the combination. A student with a top 2% rank and 2150 is unlikely to get in. A Val with a 2150 or a just top 2% with a 2350, is a much more likely admit.</p>
<p>People,first, thank you all for your valuable comments. But I would like to indicate that I agree ( or I want to agree ) with seahawk. The reason is, if the class rank is the FAR MOST important factor, then why does MIT or a top tier school require transcript, ecs, SATs, essays etc. Just for competing among vals? Come on! On a site, it was said, %97 of admitted students to MIT were in top %10, %98 was in top %25 and %100 in top %50. Don’t these stats explain something? Also, on MIT’s site, everything is written down. Clearly. And I couldn’t get anything that said " Well dude, if ur not a val or sal, or in top 5, sorry, MIT is not for you". And, if it was all to do with the class rank, then how would they admit a student from a HS which doesn’t rank?
I know our school val and sal and they know nothing but studying all the time. They don’t have any ECs, community service work etc. They are just NERDs! And it really sounds unfair that their chances are higher than mine. I wouldn’t like to tell my activities since it is not a CHANCE ME thread. But, I just sounds unfair.
And, Waverly, I truly respect your opinion and believe that u were an admission officer before, but, can you just briefly explain this case: A girl, a truly normal girl, in Turkey,who just helped the victims of the earthquake, was admitted to MIT? It is also indicated that she was not a val or sal. She was just and ordinary girl from a trash school. On the news, she said that she just had an average of 85+every semester, which is not a challenging thing.</p>
<p>^Well, I would qualify your comment on what MIT reveals with saying that they like for students who may not may have much of a shot to apply. Therefore, they wouldn’t ever encourage a student not to apply. The app fees are nice, and it helps to boost their selectivity (acceptance rate) and maintain elite prestige. Also, to answer your question about schools that don’t rank, they can calculate your approximate rank based on other stats but choose to look at other factors to see how competitive you are as a student. </p>
<p>By the way, I may have missed it, but we still don’t know how competitive or well-regarded as a top college feeder school your HS is. </p>
<p>But what Waverly says about the combination is correct (even if it takes away from her assertion that rank is ‘king’). In addition, no matter your rank, you better have been taking pretty much the toughest courseload your school offers. Overall, the unfortunate reality is that competition is so fierce at Top-10 type schools that you must be competitive in all areas, and often that means that the most likely applicants are very highly ranked in your class. Again, you see how there are many shades of gray when people make absolute statements because among competitive HS (that rank), those that are outside the top-5% still do get into great schools like JHU, WUSTL, and Northwestern. I myself was not inside the top-10% at my extremely cutthroat school until this semester but through other aspects of my application was accepted to several tippy top schools and will be attending UChicago next year (possibly an anomaly that would fall in the 10% Waverly wouldn’t have predicted, but still). </p>
<p>Long story short, there’s many ways to get into a top HYPSM level school, but for the majority of kids you’d find that they’re going the route of an academic superstar at their high school. </p>
<p>I know what you’re talking about the val study nerd, but ours was accepted to Columbia (and Princeton as legacy) with essentially just good grades. Ultimately, there’s many facets in a college application, so as I’ve advised before: control the things you can control.</p>
<p>Colleges say a lot of things in the name of marketing. Why do Harvard and its peers spend millions mailing marketing pieces to students around the world every year? They want to keep increasing the number of applicants so they can reject more and be considered even more selective.</p>
<p>Rank is king, but it alone won’t get you in. And the vast majority of Val’s and sals are rejected by T10 schools. You need the whole package.</p>