Is Dartmouth is a sub-standard school?

<p>spencer, GIVE IT UP.</p>

<p>After slipper's last post, I thought you would wallow back into your little hole. Apparently not.</p>

<p>Why won't you give it a rest man? You clearly lost this debate.</p>

<p>Ok...if you don't want to go away, then I'll just continue to make a fool out of you. You know I can do it spencer.</p>

<p>
[quote]
You said that. And you went on to back up your claim about how Dartmouth is better than Oxbridge because it lands you at Wall Street better... </p>

<p>Don't have the courage to admit?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Hey, if you can't find explicit proof that says I believe that Oxbridge is more prestigious than Dartmouth, then case closed. I said that Dartmouth serves us Americans extremely well, even better than Oxbridge ever could. But that's a far cry from saying that Dartmouth is actually more prestigious than Oxbridge.</p>

<p>It seems like you did not pick up what I wrote. Once again, I don't blame you. You don't know how to read. That's probably a big reason why you're in such a huge mess right now.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Rubbish! I don't know both schools personally!</p>

<p>If you ask me to go by rankings, then I would say that ranks do fluctuate year on year. Tell me whether LSE or Imperial is better would you? One is about Social Science and the other about Hard Science!</p>

<p>Go compare a banana to an orange. Period.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>You're avoiding my question. So does that mean that I'm right, spencer?</p>

<p>I did not ask you to equivocate, or beat around the bush. I did not ask you to give me an explanation that was besides the point. I asked for a simple, yes or no. Are you having trouble comprehending what I wrote?</p>

<p>But to answer your question, Imperial is better. Listen spencer, when you invoked the rankings, you restricted yourself to a perceived hierarchy that you now must answer to. The concept that rankings fluctuate year by year is besides the point. You invoked the rankings, so you have to answer to the latest edition. That's what you've been doing for most of this thread, and you decide to stop now? Stop beating around the bush, and answer my question, or else we're all going to assume that you don't believe in the validity of the THES at all, and that you concede that I was right all along.</p>

<p>What's fair is fair. So stop equivocating, and answer my question. That's twice I've answered your questions now. Why can't you do the same?</p>

<p>
[quote]
Rubbish! I don't know both schools personally!

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Oh really? Who started this thread? It seems you knew enough about Dartmouth's prestige to criticize it.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Now don't put words into my mouth. I didn't talk ill about SNU, but merely refuting your crappy argument that because SNU is highly esteemed within South Korea, it should be a top university in the world.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I see you're having trouble comprehending once again, what I wrote. I didn't say that you talked ill about SNU, just that you degraded it as a school overall. You were trying to justify its place on the THES, so you in effect, degraded Seoul National.</p>

<p>Boy, how are the Koreans going to feel about that?</p>

<p>Let me tell you something spencer. I've been pretty astute about my word choices, and it's been working. I've gotten you all riled up over things you should not be emotional about. Nobody on this thread (except maybe joshua) thinks that you have anything productive to say. To us, you're an irrational, emotionally biased fool, who needs to admit that he's wrong, and move on. Of course, we would've never thought that of you if you knew how to read.</p>

<p>
[quote]
A degree from SNU would not serve you as well as a degree from Oxbridge in most places around the world. Facts are facts and they cannot be denied. If employment is the deciding factor of university, then you should place Fudan, the top university in Shanghai, as the top university as well. Everyone knows China is hot, and Shanghai is the hottest city in China. Where would you be better off than right at the centre of action, establish all the networks and contacts necessary to conquer this giant?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Oh really? That's seemingly contradictory from what you've said here:</p>

<p>
[quote]
Todai, unlike SNU, is very coveted in Asia, especially North-East Asia.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Uh...the last time I checked, Todai had a high market value that was mostly constrained to Japan. So how does that make it SO different from SNU?</p>

<p>That's not the point here. The point is, I find SNU's ranking extremely dubious.</p>

<p>And let's be honest here. NUS isn't exactly the hottest commodity in the world. D.T. said so himself - but you would expect the reverse since he's from Singapore. Now that says a lot when NUS's own constituency doesn't think too highly of it, does it?</p>

<p>And face it, SNU students tend to be on average, smarter than the average NUS student. Heck, I think there's little dispute that the average SNU student is smarter and more successful than the average University of Toronto student. But that's not what the THES would have you thinking.</p>

<p>
[quote]
World perspective indeed. I hope you get a lot of it at Dartmouth since you seem to lack so much of it.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Oh quit it. You will never be that witty, so stop copying my statements. Let's be honest here, you probably never stepped a metre outside of Singapore. Otherwise, there's no way you would've started this thread, and there's no way you would've degraded SNU like you did.</p>

<p>spencer, there's no shame in admitting that you're wrong. Whenever I was wrong like in that one thread with cghen, I stepped back, admitted it, and faced the facts.</p>

<p>Why is that so hard for you to do? Why must you insist on trying to verbally outwit me (which you're failing, if that's what you're intending to do)? Why can't you just leave this thread, and apologize to all of the prospective Dartmouth students, all of the Korean kids, and everyone else you've pulled an ad hominem on?</p>

<p>It's usually like that with an argument - people tend to want to win all the time. But come on spencer, you clearly lost here. So why do you even bother to continue writing stuff that doesn't inquire a whole lot about Dartmouth at all?</p>

<p>I want you to admit that you were wrong, and leave this thread. There's no point in continuing. You've blatantly disregarded slipper, and sakky's posts. But they've both had their say, so there's no reason to continue. You just didn't like what they said.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ammarsfound
I googled big brother 1984 and spencer11111. There were 1,480,000 for big brother 1984, but only 420 for spencer11111. Shall we now assume big brother 1984 is a better nickname to have on online forums than spencer11111? </p>

<p>I LOL! </p>

<p>You committed two technical mistakes.
1. You typed Big Brother 1984 instead of "Big Brother 1984" for the normal search on the google website, thereby search all the sites that have Big, Brother and 1984.
2. What you are searching is the number of websites. When I was using Google Treads (not normal search), I was finding the no. of searches for that particular term by people on the internet using Google. So if "Imperial College" has a higher search rate than "Dartmouth College" on Google Treads, that means more people keyed in "Imperial College" and clicked [search] than they do with the term "Dartmouth College". People would only search that particular term if they show interest, if they are aware of it, and if they have good reasons to. This is how the popularity is measured. If you find this idea unacceptable, then be gone with you, because you are indirectly ridiculing the Googlers for developing this system.</p>

<p>As for Big Brother 1984 vs. spencer11111</p>

<p><a href="http://www.google.com/trends?q=Big+B...er11111&ctab=0%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.google.com/trends?q=Big+B...er11111&ctab=0&lt;/a>
(Note for Google tread you don't need to specify the " ", unlike normal searches. Separate exact terms using commas.)
No data available: Insufficient volume to draw conclusion, as expected.</p>

<p>As for: Dartmouth College, Harvard University, Duke University, Cambridge University, Cornell University
<a href="http://www.google.com/trends?q=Dartm...ate=all&sort=0%5B/url%5D%5B/quote%5D"&gt;http://www.google.com/trends?q=Dartm...ate=all&sort=0

[/quote]
</a></p>

<p>You CLEARLY missed ammars' point spencer. I'm not going to even explain this one to you. I think it's funnier to watch you drown in your own sea of delusions.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Dartmouth is a clear loser to Harvard, Duke, Cambridge and Cornell.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>
[quote]
Dartmouth is a clear loser to Harvard, Duke, Cambridge and Cornell.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>
[quote]
Dartmouth is a clear loser to Harvard, Duke, Cambridge and Cornell.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Oh really? What ever happened to:</p>

<p>
[quote]
I have no incentive to talk ill about Dartmouth. I just want to know why the Americans perceive Dartmouth so highly when in fact it is abysmal in all the world rankings and int'l perceptions.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Checkmate. I want you to admit it right now spencer. You came into this thread with your mind already made up. You're not looking for opinions, you're just trying to convince other people about your biased views on Dartmouth.</p>

<p>You're prolonging this discussion when it should've ended a long time ago. I want you to admit that you were wrong about Dartmouth, spencer. Face it, you lost.</p>

<p>interesting discussions here... though i think things are getting a bit heated up</p>

<p>just curious though, why isn't there any sort of separate rankings for undergrad and grad schools? just like there are for LACs? (first, i clarify that i don't know that much about the system yet) but i gather from these discussions that
1) dartmouth is less regarded internationally because of its strong focus on undergrad, thus losing out on research
2) this strong focus on undergrad is its forte at the same time</p>

<p>thus, in my opinion, separate rankings for undergrad and grad schools will be a fairer assessment of all the schools</p>

<p>
[quote]
just curious though, why isn't there any sort of separate rankings for undergrad and grad schools? just like there are for LACs? (first, i clarify that i don't know that much about the system yet) but i gather from these discussions that

[/quote]
</p>

<p>There are separate rankings, and I think the USNWR does a decent enough job documenting this. Obviously these rankings aren't perfect, and there're always a lot of disputes about what criteria should be emphasized etc. There are schools like Dartmouth that are, for all purposes, an LAC - even though they do have some grad programs and professional schools. I guess this is what would make them "National Universities" on the USNWR.</p>

<p>
[quote]
1) dartmouth is less regarded internationally because of its strong focus on undergrad, thus losing out on research

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I don't think that's particularly Dartmouth's fault. Like a lot of people over on the Dartmouth forums have stated, they don't really care what Internationals think of the school. Like slipper has said, there are a lot of benefits to attending the school. But if international students don't step up to realize their opportunities, then that's their loss.</p>

<p>
[quote]
thus, in my opinion, separate rankings for undergrad and grad schools will be a fairer assessment of all the schools

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I think it would be fair to students themselves to consider the unique strengths of each university regardless of the associated rankings that go with it. Like I've always said, if other students don't want to take advantage of the opportunities that exist at a certain university - preferring to go elsewhere arguably even worse - then that's too bad for them. That's more love for the students that do take advantage of the opportunities, and that's too bad for the students who didn't know any better.</p>

<p>I think ammars knows this fully well. He chose Dartmouth over Duke, despite Duke's higher ranking on the USNWR.</p>

<p>Like a lot of people over on the Dartmouth forums have stated, they don't really care what Internationals think of the school. Like slipper has said, there are a lot of benefits to attending the school. But if international students don't step up to realize their opportunities, then that's their loss.</p>

<p>Its funny that you should mention that. I'm international, and people generally haven't heard of Dartmouth where i'm from. Duke, along with harvard, stanford, columbia, mit, and berkeley, is considered the top-tier american college. Notice what all these universities have in common? VERY strong science research. Its one of the reasons yale, dartmouth and princeton don't have quite the same amount of prestige in pakistan.</p>

<p>BUT, I think i'm a very science-y person. I've only taken science subjects in the past two years, and will probably major in one of the sciences. HOWEVER, I chose dartmouth over columbia and duke. The former was a no-brainer since i've only heard bad things about columbia from current students. The latter took a while. Duke really was my top choice for the longest time. But after getting into dartmouth, I realized i liked the people at dartmouth better. I think more than anything else, more than rankings, or endowments, or research reputation, what matters most while getting an undergrad education is that the environment you're living in HELPS you achieve your goals, rather than deterring them. Dukes an amazing school, but I felt duke students generally had the uchicago complex : They go to a good school, but they feel a compulsion to remind the world how good their school is, even if it means exaggerating facts and bending the truth just a bit. I saw topics like 'which school did you choose duke over' popping up everywhere on the duke facebook page and people just kept going on about how they chose duke over YALE, because they pulled themselves off the yale waitlist. I just didn't think i could do well with people as complicated as this. A similar topic popped up on the dartmouth facebook page. I chuckled when almost no one responded to it :-) Out of all the schools i got into i thought the dartmouth people and Chicago people (despite the inherent inferiority complex) were the ones i could get along with best. Chicagos got the core, and i hate cores. So Dartmouth it was :-)</p>

<p>But I digress. The point is why would you want pay 50 grand to go to a school that treats you like second class students? Slipper already elaborated on what dartmouth has to offer. And the term LAC means practically nothing. Any university you go to for undergrad will teach the same thing and give you no more opportunities than an LAC would. The difference is that universities will also have grad students to worry about, so you'll end up sharing (and in most cases forfeiting) certain facilities with/to grad students. The best example of this would be the MRI machine at dartmouth, the ONLY one in the US that is there for use by undergrad neuroscience majors. At no other college are undergrads allowed (almost) exclusive use of an MRI machine, especially not at a university where the professors fear irresponsible undergrads might end up breaking a precious tool used by precious grad students :-/</p>

<p>Well said Ammarsfound. Though we Dukies aren't that bad really. ;)</p>

<p>I didn't read the whole thing. (or any, to be honest)</p>

<p>But knowing you, Ammar, I'm sure it was lovely.</p>

<p>Am I the only person who really couldn't care less about "prestige" (I'm so sick of that word, it makes me retch)? I'm an international student by technicality -- I'm a Swedish citizen who's spent the past six years in DC -- and don't expect the average Swede to ever have heard of Dartmouth, but honestly, how is that going to influence my life at all? Facts like the ones slipper1234 listed were infinitely more persuasive to me than any notion of "reputation" or "brand name." I feel like the only idealist in a room full of prestige-crazed would-be investment bankers, and it's mildly disconcerting.</p>

<p>Before anyone calls me a hypocrite, I didn't apply to Harvard, Yale, Stanford, MIT, Duke, Penn, Brown, or Cornell. I applied to Princeton for its undergrad focus (a characteristic it shares with Dartmouth); I like to think I would've chosen Dartmouth over it after visiting both (Dimensions was spectacular), but considering I wasn't accepted, there really isn't any point in speculating. Shouldn't we be saving the world or curing cancer or something, being oh-so-exceptional and all? :rolleyes:</p>

<p>I absolutely agree with what Ammar said about the people at Dartmouth, by the way (hi, Steve). :)</p>

<p>the "prestige" factor is important for internationals because it helps them to get a job when they return to their home countries after graduation. Therefore, it is quite important that people back home have heard of the university you attended. Back home, employers are more likely to choose someone who attended brand-name schools like Oxbridge, or HYPMS, over someone who went to Dartmouth. Heck, I'd say you'd have a hard time finding work in your home country if you attended a school in the states that no one has heard of. so prestige is important...</p>

<p>
[quote]
the "prestige" factor is important for internationals because it helps them to get a job when they return to their home countries after graduation. Therefore, it is quite important that people back home have heard of the university you attended. Back home, employers are more likely to choose someone who attended brand-name schools like Oxbridge, or HYPMS, over someone who went to Dartmouth. Heck, I'd say you'd have a hard time finding work in your home country if you attended a school in the states that no one has heard of. so prestige is important...

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I agree that prestige is an extraordinarily good market value indicator. However, I'd probably have a very difficult time finding great work back at home with pretty much a degree from any college in the United States except Harvard. Let's be honest here. To most people, it's Harvard and everything else. Most people with hiring power probably would never hear of Oxbridge or YPMS.</p>

<p>Usually, the degrees that have the most market values here are ones from UWO, UofT, UWaterloo, etc. Even then that's a pretty loaded statement because so many people have those degrees - but there's a big difference between those who have a bachelor's degree, and those who don't.</p>

<p>One way to counteract this "back at home" mentality is to simply stay in the United States after graduation.</p>

<p>"Most people with hiring power probably would never hear of Oxbridge or YPMS."</p>

<p>I disagree with this statement. I hail from a small country in Southeast Asia and even people here have heard of YPMS (not only Harvard) because of the popular media. In my personal experience, my Canadian cousins certainly have heard of Princeton and they hold it in high esteem. On the contrary, though Dartmouth is a great school, very few people know about it. </p>

<p>You are kidding me when you say most people with hiring power have never heard of Oxbridge. Oxbridge graduates are one of the most sought after in the world. If the employers in your country have never heard of Oxbridge, then they are pretty ignorant. </p>

<p>It is more correct to say that FEW people have never heard of Oxbridge and YPSM. In general, these are all well-known schools everywhere.</p>

<p>My point is, for an international who is planning to seek employment in his/her home country after graduation, "prestige" is an important factor.</p>

<p>
[quote]
"Most people with hiring power probably would never hear of Oxbridge or YPMS."

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This statement is most certainly true. I'm not talking about places like Wall Street, or Bay Street, etc. I'm talking about most employers with effective hiring power, who hail from pretty decent workplaces. This statement is 100% true for my dad's workplace - one of the largest breweries in Canada. Anyone who knows Canada knows that beer is a popular commodity here.</p>

<p>Hey, I'm not denying that very few people here know about Dartmouth. I'm just saying that for most Canadians - who aren't very academically inclined to be honest - they will not have heard of pretty much every single college we think of as prestigious in America sans Harvard. Even then, the name Harvard just elicits a cognitively biased view of pretentious, snooty rich people.</p>

<p>Even among my more intelligent friends from high school, they didn't know whether MIT stood for Maine, Minnesota, or Massachusetts Institute of Technology. Once again, I'm not talking about bastions of the academic elite. I'm not talking about a district full of asians who by virtue, are probably extremely prestige, and status conscious. I'm not talking about a cultural subset that emphasizes the pursuit of an Ivy League education - one that we see all too often here. I'm talking about most people. Heck, if you go to West Georgia, the only prestigious college people there have seem ever heard of is Harvard. A classmate of mine made it into Yale, and nobody seemed to notice.</p>

<p>
[quote]
You are kidding me when you say most people with hiring power have never heard of Oxbridge.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I kid you not. Heck, several executives at my dad's company were mere high school graduates. It goes to show you that what's most important isn't the college you go to - but the connections that you make. Let's face it, Oxbridge doesn't exactly have the largest alumni presence in North America - certainly not stronger than the Ivies. </p>

<p>Once again, I'm not talking about prestige conscious bastions like Wall Street or Silicon Valley. I'm talking about most jobs that can afford you a pretty darn good lifestyle.</p>

<p>
[quote]
If the employers in your country have never heard of Oxbridge, then they are pretty ignorant.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>No kidding. But you've just about described 99% of North Americans. </p>

<p>
[quote]
It is more correct to say that FEW people have never heard of Oxbridge and YPSM. In general, these are all well-known schools everywhere.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Wrong. It is more correct to say that MOST people have never heard of Oxbridge and YPSM. Most people are very grassroots by nature - they'll go to their local state university. But that's not a problem - you can still get a pretty darn good job if you play your cards right. This is America, after all.</p>

<p>I think places like CC place such a huge emphasis on these top-tier colleges, disregarding the reality of the situation that is out there. Really, there's little incentive for most Canadians/Americans to go to a top-tier college. There are tons of great employers looking to fill their positions out there. I must admit, it is hard to imagine how some people could be fairly ignorant but hey. Go out to a suburb in Eastern Alabama or an auto manufacturing plant in Detroit. I guarentee you, YPSM doesn't even have a presence there. That's reality.</p>

<p>
[quote]
My point is, for an international who is planning to seek employment in his/her home country after graduation, "prestige" is an important factor.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I'm assuming you're from Singapore, or Hong Kong. Well then it would make sense that from such a small constituency (by area), one needs as much of an upper hand as possible. NUS and HKU aren't exactly what I would call all-star universities, so every little bit helps.</p>

<p>Of course, there's also the combining fact that Asians are extremely prestige conscious - and I say this as an Asian myself. Every Asian I have ever known is somewhat very obsessed with prestige and status. The Japanese and Koreans are all gaga for Todai and SNU. But for most Canadians and Americans, I can tell you that we just don't care or pay attention. I suspect that most Europeans are pretty chill too - opting to go to their national universities instead. I also don't see very many South Americans on CC - so that's a good sign :)</p>

<p>If you plan on working in your country of origin, its generally a better idea just to go to the flagship uni of said country. I think most domestic employers are pretty ignorant about international universities, so chances are they probably wouldn't be too impressed even if you told them you went to caltech or something. This has happened to my dad quite a few times. He went to stanford for his PhD, came back to karachi, and his interviewer looked through his resume and went ,'Wow, you went to NED (a local engineering college dad went to for his Bachelors). Impressive". Not a word was spoken about stanford.</p>

<p>
[quote]
If you plan on working in your country of origin, its generally a better idea just to go to the flagship uni of said country.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I agree. If you want to market yourself in your own country, then it's generally a better idea to go to your state flagship.</p>

<p>If you intend to go to a top-tier college in the United States, then your main goal should be to stay there after graduation. That, or to be around a group of pretty smart people and get a decent education. Who said it was all about the money ;)</p>

<p>lol this thread is not going anywhere.</p>

<p>
[quote]
lol this thread is not going anywhere.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Haha yeah. We're all just kinda waiting for the mods to delete it.</p>

<p>
[quote]

Most people with hiring power probably would never hear of Oxbridge or YPMS."

[/quote]

I'm sorry to disagree, but this is completely false. Your experience might be different, but (1) I highly doubt that the people at your father's work really haven't heard of Oxbridge and Princeton, Stanford, etc., and (2) I doubt even more that most Canadians haven't heard of these colleges. What is more, I KNOW that most people (at least in my country, Germany) have heard of Oxbridge and Yale, Princeton, Stanford. I'm doing a year of social service, and even people who are not that bright or well-educated have heard of Cambridge, for example.</p>

<p>Anway, just wanted to throw that in. Never mind :)</p>

<p>
[quote]

If you plan on working in your country of origin, its generally a better idea just to go to the flagship uni of said country.

[/quote]

Again, I disagree. Come on, this is a no-brainer. If you leave in Irak, would you go to the top uni in Irak or to HYMPS? Even your bosses in Irak know the answer. This is an exaggerated case, but I hope it makes things clearer.</p>

<p>"I think it would be fair to students themselves to consider the unique strengths of each university regardless of the associated rankings that go with it. Like I've always said, if other students don't want to take advantage of the opportunities that exist at a certain university - preferring to go elsewhere arguably even worse - then that's too bad for them. That's more love for the students that do take advantage of the opportunities, and that's too bad for the students who didn't know any better."</p>

<p>Big Brother 1984, i beg to disagree with your above statements. Your assumption is that students (esp international ones) have perfect information about the various universities that they may plan to apply to, ie it's not that they don't want to take advantage of the opportunities - it's that they are not even aware of the opportunities. </p>

<p>I am myself an international student. Before I chanced upon this thread, I know nothing about Dartmouth honestly, only that it is an Ivy league school. I am quite fortunate to know about the many opportunies available at Dartmouth and I will now consider applying to it.</p>