Is Duke worth the money?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Duke University
21

<p>“It is disconcerting to see so many getting sidetracked by what is in reality a small sum of money.” </p>

<p>Classic 'Murica logic by a boomer. Since when is $100,000 of debt a “small sum of money” boomer? People wonder why this country is going down the TTT…</p>

<p>I think it’s borderline outrageous that people actually consider taking on 100K+ dollars of DEBT for an UG degree. OP, if your daughter is thinking about attending GS, I’d suggest you ask her to at least consider opting for a more fiscally responsible decision.</p>

22

<p>The concept of an excellent public/flagship undergraduate degree, followed by an “elite” postgraduate or (especially) professional school degree certainly merits consideration. However, the very best advanced degree programs disproportionally admit candidates from other most-selective universities and LACs. This does NOT suggest that an outstanding applicant from, for example, a typical Big Ten university cannot be admitted to Hopkins for Medical School, to Yale for Law School, or to Stanford for an MBA (and so forth); I strongly suspect this happens annually. But – all other factors being equal – the applicant from the Ivies, MIT, Stanford, Northwestern, Duke, Rice, Notre Dame, and their peers will have a distinct admissions advantage.</p>

<p>Does that matter? In most instances, it probably does not matter much (if at all). A smart, personable, conscientious individual with, for example, undergraduate and law degrees from solid, reputable universities can – and likely will – have a successful and happy professional career.</p>

<p>HOWEVER (to illustrate with only one germane example), without an elite JD, that same individual has essentially no chance – zero – to become a USSC Clerk. Obviously, for the vast majority of young attorneys, Clerking for a USSC Justice is basically an irrelevant dream. But one has to ask whether he wishes to foreclose the best career opportunities – generally before age 25 – through the selection good, but not superior, educational options. Finally, foregoing USSC Clerkship example is supported by abundant and publicly available data, although I would respectfully suggest very similar situations exist in the other professions as well as in top-employer recruiting.</p>

23

<p>Some clarifying points:</p>

<p>1) An “interesting” career is one in which an individual is able to take full advantage of all the gifts and talents God has bestowed on him or her in their pursuit of the passions God instilled in them. In no way was I equating an “interesting” career with one focused on making money - although the two are not mutually exclusive. That said, I have observed that the most talented and committed in virtually every profession that leverages well developed intellectual capital live comfortably. </p>

<p>2) Amounts of money are relative to their context. I currently live in Africa where, for the poor whom I serve, an income of $100 per month is considered good. Those here would consider the incomes of any on CC extraordinary. Within the context of what a bright extremely well-trained mind can earn in the US over a fulfilling life pursuing their interests/passions $100,000 is, in most cases, on a relative basis, a small sum of money. </p>

<p>3) There is risk in making a large bet on a young person’s future. Not every individual or their family is willing to place the bet, and not every bet pays off. That said, the vast majority of such bets that I have observed have paid off extraordinarily well. There is great wisdom in the Top Tier missives above. It is far easier to see the value in taking the financial risks associated with funding an elite education toward the back end of a life well lived than from the front end. </p>

<p>4) We all need to make decisions we are comfortable with. I admire those parents (including Mnomno) who are willing to make what are often very sacrificial decisions to provide their children with the best possible opportunities, and respect the choices of those who have good reasons to encourage their children to attend less costly alternatives. I am grateful to the many alums of universities like Duke whose graciously given gifts make it possible to for large amounts of financial aid to be provided to those in need. My only distaste is for the administrations of these universities who over a period of several decades have let costs increase at rates substantially in excess of the rate of inflation and have lined their own pockets with a disproportionate amount of the increasing revenues. Their moral and management failures are being felt in the pocketbooks of every parent and have often forced parents to make sub-optimal decisions.</p>

24

<p>Thank you top, am and others for thoughtful posts. I know she is going to duke even if I have to take loan or live a life with restricted means. The Duke admission does not come by easily so I am not daring to drop the offer. I am medium class and I think there are many kids go to duke with similar family background. So there are many other parents who chose to live a hard life so that their kids can go to top 10. I am just following it blindly.
However I just wanted to know the rational behind willingness of many parents (me included) to pay that much high for education.</p>

25

<p>Mnomno,</p>

<p>I admire your decision and I predict it will provide countless, significant benefits for your daughter and for your/her future generations.</p>

<p>You inquired regarding parental rationale. Please permit me succinctly to offer mine, which I also believe applies to millions of other parents across many American generations.</p>

<p>For centuries, the United States has been justifiably been called “the land of opportunity.” Successes in this nation are abundantly available, but they are not – nor should it be – easy to achieve. They require hard work, intelligent risk taking, steadfast honesty and character, real sacrifices, ingenuity, talents, and tenacity. However, nowhere else on earth have those virtues been more generally – and more generously – rewarded.</p>

<p>Opportunity and success also requires abilities, and education is vital to develop, to enhance, and to sustain abilities that are both relevant and marketable. Therefore, education is a critical key to long-term, intergenerational successes.</p>

<p>I will conclude by emphasizing overriding importance of intergenerational achievement. Perhaps the most ardent wish of every parent is to see his children succeed (by whatever definitions) considerably beyond the parent’s accomplishments. Thus – and this is reality for millions of Americans – the parent without a high school education may see his children complete undergraduate degrees and his grandchildren complete the most prestigious advanced degrees. That parent – especially his love, his sacrifices, and his values – is/was the essential foundation of his family’s enduring successes.</p>

<p>That’s my rationale, it’s entirely factual – my grandparents, my parents, my children, and I have lived it – and it makes “America, the land of opportunity” absolutely real . . . it’s not a myth and it’s not propaganda. My illiterate, immigrant grandparents (none of whom completed elementary school or lived to see it) had four grandchildren who earned undergraduate and advanced degrees from Harvard, Brown, Penn and Duke.</p>

26

<p>Nice family history. I can feel your grand parents’ and parents’ sacrifices to make a good environment for next generation. Please keep in mind that measures of life are not money and/or colleges althought they are a means of good life. There is a responsibility to society as a successful individual/family. I enjoyed your writing. :)</p>

27

<p>$100k in undergraduate load debt for any college, include HYPS is ludicrous. I did not attend those schools, but I did my undergrad and grad at two top 25 schools. One private, one public. I agree that the brand adds value but I know plenty of people who went to better colleges than me that aren’t doing as well.</p>

<p>I strongly suggest people considering allowing their kids to go into debt listen to the Dave Ramsey podcast/radio show. Every other day some graduate calls with $75k to $100k in student loan debt while clutching their BA degree in history or some other low paying profession without any way of paying off their student loans, credit cards and other debts.</p>

<p>Why is this bad? Why shouldn’t just look at the intrinsic value of the degree? The problem is that the debt is an albatross that hangs around their neck for the next twenty years. And while they are admiring their college alumni frame, others who went to more affordable colleges, are able to live debt free, buy their first condo and begin to amass wealth. </p>

<p>Student loans are an inhibitor to social and class mobility not an enabler.</p>

28

<p>I agree, Dad2013, which is the primary reason I spent about half of my 40+ year post-bachelors career as a Naval officer. The pay was mediocre, at best, but the sense of team accomplishment in America’s – and the world’s – service was outstanding.</p>

29

<p>I agree. College education should be an enabler, not inhibitor.</p>

30

<p>Thank you, top, where, dad and others.
Duke is dream school for my daughter. I can not tell her not to go there because I have to take a loan from heloc and I might face some hardship. She hardly asked for anything. She will be happy to go instate if she knows that I do not have that kind of savings. Will I tell her? No.</p>

31

<p>I think you need to be honest with your daughter (and yourself) on the financial situation. Is she planning on working this summer and during the school year, which could help cover your EFC? Is she looking at graduate or professional school in the future, which add to the future loan debt? What are her other options for colleges?</p>

32

<p>Mnomno, you can go to the duke admissions webpage and navigate to the Net Price Calculator webpage. By entering your information, you can get an estimate of what you and your D would have to pay. As someone mentioned, you may be very surprised at how generous Duke is in merit and need aid.</p>

<p>good luck</p>

33

<p>By the way, although I wish the NPC from Duke website is correct, it didn’t make sense compared to other comparable colleges. The NPC result seems like too generous to be true in my case which is under upper middle class range although I don’t agree. If the NPC is right and Duke gives admission to my daughter, Duke will be really top place for my daughter to choose over top 5 nationally ranked universities. :)</p>

34

<p>@TopTier </p>

<p>“Undergraduates are understandably stunned at the potential debt, but one will work for four or five decades.”</p>

<p>That sounds horrid. OP’s daughter needs to get on here. My generation will be shackled by enough debt thanks to you boomers. This logic is baffling me. </p>

<p>“However, the very best advanced degree programs disproportionally admit candidates from other most-selective universities and LACs.”</p>

<p>So, let’s advocate taking on 100K in debt for an UG degree based on the premise that OP’s D will get into better grad schools? Where more debt will kick in? Laughable. </p>

<p>“But – all other factors being equal – the applicant from the Ivies, MIT, Stanford, Northwestern, Duke, Rice, Notre Dame, and their peers will have a distinct admissions advantage.” </p>

<p>Yeah, if “all factors being equal” is possible. You’re going to have a hard time convincing me that people would have the exact same GPA, LSAT, EC’s, personal statements and personal recommendations for example… </p>

<p>“HOWEVER (to illustrate with only one germane example), without an elite JD, that same individual has essentially no chance – zero – to become a USSC Clerk.”</p>

<p>Exactly. An elite JD. Everyone knows that GPA and LSAT are the only things that matter for getting into an “elite” LS. It’s 2014. Harvard LS is going to take a kid from CSULB with a 4.0/176 over a kid from Duke with a 3.8/176 any day of the week without even blinking. </p>

<p>“My illiterate, immigrant grandparents (none of whom completed elementary school or lived to see it) had four grandchildren who earned undergraduate and advanced degrees from Harvard, Brown, Penn and Duke.”</p>

<p>Enter 2014 friend.</p>

35

<p>Sontag: No one compels you to incur debt (for education or for anything else); however, if you opt for myopic and “economical” educational alternatives that foreclose worthwhile opportunities, you have no one to blame but yourself, you made the decision(s), and you should be prepared for the enduring consequences. Further, please stop whining; no one promised you perfection and I am hardly liable for the multiple follies committed by millions of baby-boomers (although I am entirely proud to be held accountable for my individual decisions and actions). We shall eventually see how your generation performs when it a accedes to positions of responsibility, but given the disquieting degree of narcissism, greed and massive self-indulgence we have witnessed thus far, I’m not particularly optimistic. I suspect your lack of experience and wisdom is reflected in your views. I’ll stand by mine, based on considerable education and decades of difficult, hard-won experiences and leadership.</p>

36

<p>“Sontag: No one compels you to incur debt (for education or for anything else); however, if you opt for myopic and “economical” educational alternatives that foreclose worthwhile opportunities, you have no one to blame but yourself, you made the decision(s), and you should be prepared for the enduring consequences.”</p>

<p>My name isn’t SonTag. It’s time to get a new prescription. I’m not the OP. Of course no one is compelling me to take on 100K+ in debt for a measly UG degree at Duke. I’m debt-averse and fiscally responsible because I pay for everything myself. I’m simply pointing out that IMO, your advice is outdated to say the least. </p>

<p>“I suspect your lack of experience and wisdom is reflected in your views. I’ll stand by mine, based on considerable education and decades of difficult, hard-won experiences and leadership.”</p>

<p>Haha, boomer, you’re telling someone that it’s completely justifiable to take on over 100K dollars of DEBT in this economy to attend Duke UG because they’ll eventually be able to pay it back after working for 40-50 years. Weren’t you the one that stated nothing is guaranteed? If so, we certainly agree on that. Seems as though you aren’t as wise as you might think you are. </p>

<p>“We shall eventually see how your generation performs when it accedes to positions of responsibility, but given the disquieting degree of narcissism, greed and massive self-indulgence we have witnessed thus far, I’m not particularly optimistic.”</p>

<p>This is absolutely hysterical coming from a boomer. And what are you basing this off of? The children you raised or maybe kids like Justin Bieber? Here’s the truth, it’s incredibly easy to make a case that your generation is one of, if not, the worst generations to ever inhabit planet Earth. </p>

<p>Shxx-Bomer: " Pejorative term referring to members of the baby boomer generation. Often used by Generation Xers or Millennials to express their frustration regarding how their parents’ generation inherited a world of unlimited possibility and due to their boundless greed and entitlement, left their children and grandchildren a future of grinding austerity with no end in sight.</p>

<p>Refers to the generation of leeches born during the demographic Post-World War II baby boom between the years 1946 and 1964. A generation of draft dodgers who advocated peace, love and happiness and then grew up to wage deadly, never-ending wars in the middle east and abroad. A generation that has shackled their children with a burden of debt that resulted from their own greed and sense of entitlement."</p>

37

<p>Snorlaz, an ad hominem attack on baby boomers is off point. In every generation there have been those who have served their country and communities well and those who, sadly, have attempted to derive more value from the society than they contributed. The frank reality is that our country as a whole (baby boomers and the generations that have followed) has lost sight of the values that made the US what it is - but that is not the issue here. </p>

<p>The real issue is, given today’s context, and the opportunity to attend a leading university, is the cost premium worth the sacrifice? It is a question that unfortunately can only be accurately answered by those who have benefited from such an education and therefore have the experience base on which to opine. </p>

<p>You can choose to respectfully learn from those with the wisdom that comes from having the relevant experience, or ignore the advice. The wonderful thing about our country is that you have the choice. My fear is that entrenched and naive views may end up limiting your or your children’s opportunity to lead the most fulfilling life available to them. </p>

<p>On a separat note, Top Tier, thank you for your kind note. I tried to reply but apparently don’t have sufficient posts. Will reply when I am able.</p>

38

<p>@am</p>

<p>My initial comment directed towards TopTier is most certainly true. I stated that my generation has been shackled by the debt caused by fiscal irresponsibility on part by boomers as a whole. Here we have someone (TT) telling a stranger that, “It is disconcerting to see so many getting sidetracked by what is in reality a small sum of money.” </p>

<p>I’m simply pointing out that this isn’t a small sum of money. Otherwise, don’t you think that OP would have the money in the first place?! I have no cards on the table. Top Tier on the other hand… “I have been closely affiliated with Duke for over four decades, as a student, a volunteer leader (including admissions), an alumni member of several senior Councils, Boards and Executive Committees, and a financial contributions solicitor/planner.”</p>

<p>We’re talking about at least $100,000 of debt just to start with. None of us know what OP’s daughter wants to do. For all we know, she’ll major in Art History and end up working at Starbucks. </p>

<p>OP asked “Is Duke worth the money?” and I’m providing my opinion. Is it worth 100K in debt for an UG degree? ABSOLUTELY NOT. A boomers personal experiences are essentially irrelevant because this is 2014. The economy and job market are VASTLY different. Tuition is insanely more expensive. Etc etc… </p>

<p>Let’s get real here. If Duke wasn’t good at basketball or had those LAX rape charges, the majority of Americans would have no idea it even existed. If USN didn’t pander to privates using endowment, Duke likely wouldn’t even be a top 20 school.</p>

39

<p>Snorlaz, I respectfully disagree with your POV. </p>

<p>For whatever the reasons (I personally believe they are for reasons other than Basketball or the LAX Scandal - but that is not worth arguing) Duke currently has among the best placement in top flight graduate programs and in the hard to get consulting and investment banking entry level jobs which are a path to the premier business schools and the top business and government leadership positions across the globe. Whether right or wrong this is the reality in 2014. These avenues are not remotely as accessible for those who do not attend a top 10 university or LAC. </p>

<p>All populations fall on a bell curve. Assuming, hypothetically, all students ended up with a $100,000 debt load (in reality only a very small portion would) the student population has some (representing one tail on the bell curve) who will not be able to take full advantage of a Duke education or choose a path that makes a $100,000 debt load seem daunting. IMO for the majority in the middle of the bell curve, the prospective $100,000 would be a nominal inconvenience requiring what are minor sacrifices relative to the benefits. And for the right hand side of the bell curve the debt load would be inconsequential. </p>

<p>A pre-requisites to wisdom is a willingness to listen carefully and learn from those (like Top Tier) who have the benefit of experience - which you cavalierly dismiss as being without value. Whether or not the “Baby Boomers” made mistakes - which every generation has - it is through making mistakes that we learn best and collect wisdom.</p>

40

<p>Post #39 is the typical case of Ad Hominem (“Bypassing the argument by launching an irrelevant attack on the person and not their claim”). ;)</p>

<p><a href=“http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem[/url]”>http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;