Every AO I have spoken to and every podcast I have listened to says that if a school pays attention to ranking for admission then a student is measured against his/her peers. For better or for worse. My kid is in the 15th percentile even though his rigor is pretty high. We chose to apply to schools where rigor is valued over rank. And we chose auto merit schools. He is 3 for 3 so far but they are not obviously T20 schools.
But isn’t that just life? And grade inflation doesn’t just happen at “less competitive “ schools that don’t offer AP classes.
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Yes, all true. I’m merely offering an opinion why some kids might have been deferred in this early round (and eventually might not get merit). My son was accepted early because he was high stats. His friend had a lower SAT score but slightly higher GPA that edged him into the 10%. He was accepted RD and got merit. If Clemson awards based on all 3 stats, than that wasn’t a personal decision, it was based on stats and the top 10% stat was one of them. No sour grapes here, just a recent, real world experience.
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How do schools like Clemson determine rank if my son goes to an OOS high school that does not rank?
They can only use what they can use. It’s like a test - if you don’t have one, they won’t evaluate.
I personally think schools defer certain kids that dont’ stand out - either a hook or don’t hit a certain academic cutoff.
Some schools staff up to read apps and maybe they aren’t there yet.
I do think rank is relative - a top 10% at one school isn’t a top 10% at another school - but the AOs have to suss that out.
I just too many think their student is off the charts because they meet or exceed a certain stat level but today, even with declining enrollments, the top is loaded with quantity.
And we don’t know how these kids did in the essays, LORs, etc.
I think deferrals stink for a kid - a rejection would be better so the mental anguish is gone - but yet the truth is, many deferred kids might obtain admission.
@1dadinNC Obviously the auto merit don’t care about rank - so for those who get great grades, they are golden - especially at schools that use UW GPA - like Arizona.
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Look for your high school’s academic report (your child’s GC will be sending a copy with their college applications).
A high school’s academic report will often times show the GPA breakdown of the student population. So, while your son may not have a specific class rank, the colleges will be able to determine where you son ‘sits’ in relationship to the rest of his class.
Sometimes it looks like
GPAs of 4.00+ (5% of graduating class)
GPAs of 3.75 - 3.99 (10% of graduating class)
GPAs of 3.50 - 3.74 (15% of graduating class)
GPAs of 3.25 - 3.49 (15% of graduating class)
GPAs of 3.00 - 3.24 (20% of graduating class)
GPAs of 2.75 - 2.99 (10% of graduating class)
GPAs of 2.50 - 2.74 (10% of graduating class)
GPAs of 2.00 -2.49 (10% of graduating class)
GPAs of 1.00 - 1.99 (5% of graduating class)
or
Top 10% - GPAs of 4.65 - 5.0+
Top 20% - GPAs of 4.23 - 4.64
Top 30% - GPAs of 3.91 - 4.22
Top 40% - GPAs of 3.62 - 3.90
Top 50% - GPAs of 3.25 - 3.61
etc
etc
These types of breakdowns can be shown weighted and/or unweighted (often times, both).
It really depends upon how your school’s academic report is constructed. But it will give information to help colleges be able to place your child’s transcript into context within his/her high school.
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I don’t think the top 10% is hard and fast for merit. My middle kid 2021 was not in the top 10 percent of his class and got early admit and max merit. His high school is out of state, competitive private, sends several people to Clemson every year. I do know Clemson tracks high school performance so if you’re at a high performing high school with prior Clemson admits who do well when at Clemson they seem to go below that 10 percent cut off. Same with a couple of the admits to Clemson this year. Not in the top 10% of the class but awarded merit. Merit seems to be highly correlated with test scores though. 2021 kid had a 35 ACT.
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This is very helpful!
Many HSs have gone to reporting just a median GPA (if they report anything about GPA in the school profile) so as to obfuscate class rank (which is one of the reasons they stopped reporting rank to start with). Many HSs believe that ranking students:
-
Adds to students’ stress levels
-
Prevents them from taking some classes that they want to vs. feel like they have to
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Disadvantages students in college admissions
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My older son got into Clemson in 2020 and had lower grades and stats than middle son, but a deferral means there’s still hope!
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@AnonMomof2 has your daughter looked at Blount Scholars at 'Bama? its a residential liberal arts program, where the group live in the same hall, study certain classes together, based on a set of books/topics. Open to any major, so plenty of liberal arts, plus engineers, business, etc. More liberal (socially, politically) and fewer Greek kids in this group, although there is a good mix.
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One thing AOs could use to compare the relative difficulty/rigor of high schools is to look at test scores.
If a kid in the top 2% of his class at School A has a 3.95 and scores a 30 on the ACT, while a kid in the top 15% at School B has a 3.7 and scores a 35 on the ACT… School B likely is more rigorous. Some will say, “Well, maybe the kid with the 3.95 doesn’t test well,” to which I might reply, “Well, he does well enough on tests to have a 3.95 GPA. Maybe he just doesn’t know as much as the kid with the 3.7.” This points to greater rigor at School B, especially if their test scores are representative of other classmates at their deciles.
Another way to compare rigor would be to compare how schools grade AP courses, compared to AP test results. If the kid at School A got an A in the class, but scored a 3 on the AP exam… while the kid at School B got a B in the class, but scored a 5… that may be indicative of harder grading at School B.
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Agree but you need to look at this across many students and not in a vacuum.
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How much time can schools possibly spend figuring all of this out for thousands of applicants?
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If everyone submitted I suppose. Less than half do overall and at many top schools.
That said then some don’t do well at tests. I get it though.
The reality is a 4.0 at an inner city school…in most cases…may not be a 4.0 at a wealthy suburban school.
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Since they have all the data in their system (including those in the past before TO), it is really not very difficult to generate different reports for comparison.
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Data analytics is a huge part of the “holistic review process.” They have data compiled about high schools.
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I think all unis and colleges have access to SAT and ACT avg at each HS. So, that part is not difficult. I was told by an AO that they do regression analysis on HS versus college grades to see how they translate/predict. I imagine most selective schools do some form of this exercise.
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Colleges are often familiar with many of the HSs that students apply from. When less familiar, the school profile can be helpful to help put the GPA in context. As an example, I was recently looking at the school profile for Harvard-Westlake at https://www.hw.com/Portals/28/Harvard-WestlakeProfile2022-23.pdf , for another thread. The linked profile includes a histogram showing the GPA of the class, allowing AOs to compare GPA to peers. The profile also includes average test score information in the class, which can further help context. This particular profile includes information about AP testing as well – both how many students took each AP subject exam and the AP score distribution among students at HW.
However, the highly selective private colleges that are often emphasized on this forum consider far more than just GPA and test scores when deciding who to admit. They also consider far more than GPA and test scores when estimating rigor. While transcript is an important factor, the primary admission goal is not to find students with the pinnacle of highest GPA in context of standardized rigor. It does not need to be a perfectly accurate estimate to have a good admission cycle.
I think colleges’ familiarity with HSs is often overstated. It’s fair to say that a college is more familiar with those HSs that historically send large numbers of students to the college, but it’s much less familiar with the others. A regional AO has to cover many HSs in her/his region and some colleges don’t even have regional AOs. A school profile helps, but it’s too general and sorely lacks granularity.
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