I did bring up that example, but now I’m not sure that it is valid. The reality is that Stanford’s Aeronautics & Astronautics Dept. is primarily graduate-oriented. Interested undergraduates do have the [url=<a href=“http://aa.stanford.edu/curriculum/undergraduate.php]option[/url”>http://aa.stanford.edu/curriculum/undergraduate.php]option[/url</a>] to declare “an Interdisciplinary Major in Aeronautics and Astronautics”, which leads to a non-ABET BS degree in General Engineering. But this is apparently rather rare in practice. </p>
<p>Wrong. Your logic is faulty. Even if there are no ‘respectable’ unaccredited civil engineering programs does not mean that MIT has never admitted any such graduate from one to its graduate program. Like I said, I can think of several people off the top of my head who came from low-tier, ‘un-respectable’ undergrad programs who were nevertheless admitted to MIT for graduate engineering programs of some sort. Why exactly would civil engineering be so special in this regard? As we have already established, MIT will even admit biology undergrads, which are obviously unaccredited degrees. </p>
<p>Besides, for the purposes of this thread, I don’t think I have to find an accredited “BS” civil engineering program. It seems to me that it is sufficient to find an unaccredited “BA” engineering program which some schools offer, whether concentrating in civil engineering or otherwise. I don’t know about anybody else, but I would rather earn an unaccredited engineering BA from Harvard than earn an accredited engineering degree from some 4th tier school. More to the point, it would seem to me that an unaccredited BA engineering graduate from Harvard would have a more-than-reasonable chance to be admitted to MIT for engineering graduate school, and indeed, I know some people who have done exactly that. </p>
<p>At the end of the day, the point is that you do not need an ABET-accredited undergrad engineering degree to be admitted to a Civil Engineering graduate program.</p>
<p>To my knowledge – and sakky has yet to show otherwise – the only schools in the US that will issue non-ABET civil engineering degrees are totally unaccredited mail-order institutions that fall in or near “degree mill” territory. So by “respectable”, I mean “not a degree mill”. </p>
<p>My logic did include the implicit assumption that MIT would not admit someone based on an unaccredited degree from a questionable mail-order school. I admit that I can’t prove this conclusively, but I still think the assumption is reasonable. </p>
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I am not disputing this. In fact, I have pointed out that geology majors are even more common in civil engineering departments than biology majors (because CE depts are more likely to have geotechnical programs than microbiology programs). </p>
<p>But in practice, the vast majority of graduate students in CE have ABET-accredited BS degrees in engineering. If you plan to go to CE grad school, that should be your first choice. Second choice is a rigorous BS in a related science from a good school.</p>
<p>But I can’t say that a non-ABET BS degree in civil engineering is a third choice, because I’m not convinced that there are any reputable US institutions (again, defined as “not degree mills”) that offer them.</p>
As indicated above, I don’t think you’ll find one with a concentration in civil engineering. </p>
<p>Certainly there are some fine schools that offer non-ABET BA degrees in engineering as alternatives to the ABET BS. I know of Dartmouth and Johns Hopkins, in addition to Harvard. </p>
<p>I have no problem with non-ABET BA degrees in engineering (actually, they are commonly termed “engineering sciences” degrees, as at Harvard). And I agree that such degrees don’t necessarily preclude you from admission to a good graduate school. </p>
<p>But notice that none of these schools offer the BA in conjunction with a civil engineering track. They offer non-ABET engineering degrees – but they don’t offer non-ABET civil engineering degrees. Since you can’t (to my knowledge) get an engineering BA with a civil emphasis, this is not a great option for civil engineering grad school specifically.</p>
<p>sakky - fine, you win. My original point to the OP is still obviously valid if it has been subject to considerable argument within this thread that has since been hijacked to debate this issue. You found the one exception to the rule, but I’m still not now or ever advising anyone who is pursuing engineering to attend a non ABET accredited school.</p>
<p>Even though Aerospace Engineering is not state licensed, ABET accrreditation is perhaps even more important as most of those jobs will be available with large government/defense contractors. Check the job boards. Most aerospace engineering openings specify an ABET accredited program.</p>
<p>The underlying presumption in this entire thread is that the OP actually had the choice to attend an unaccredited civil engineering program. As I think we can safely assume the OP is not considering purchasing a degree from a diploma mill, then if you are correct, any specifically denoted civil engineering bachelor’s degree he may earn would, by your assumption, be accredited anyway. Hence, there’s nothing left to debate because he doesn’t even have the choice of earning an unaccredited civil engineering degree. Why argue over a choice that the OP doesn’t even have? </p>
<p>I am interesting in talking about choices that actually exist, and I think we have now definitely established that you do not need an accredited engineering degree (not necessarily in civil), or, heck, even an engineering degree at all, to be admitted to a graduate civil engineering program.</p>
<p>sakky - The whole basis of your argument is that grad school is the end result. There’s more to life than going to school and getting a grad degree. In the work force, non ABET accredited engineering degrees are looked down upon. In fact, non ABET degrees dont even count when trying to get licensed as engineers in most states. Even if someone gets into an ABET masters program, that still doesn’t help much towards PE licensing because they’re already behind based on their undergrad. So with that in mind, why would someone intentionally put themselves behind the power curve? It may save a few dollars up front, but the long term price of not getting a certain job or not getting licensed will add up.</p>
<p>I know you’re going to come back and say “Well I know a guy who…” but lets face it, “That guy I know” always has that 99% the best luck that none of us never has, so why tempt fate?</p>
<p>No, the whole basis of my argument is to question the notion that you “need” an ABET-accredited degree to enter graduate engineering school. If nobody had ever made that claim, then I probably would not have entered the thread at all.</p>
sakky, there are no absolutes in grad admissions and I think you and everyone else knows that. There are still guidelines that are true 99% of the time. </p>
<p>Do you have to have an engineering degree to get into engineering grad school? No, and depending on the specialty it may even be easy, but if it is radically different then getting in will be radically difficult.</p>
<p>If you have an unaccredited engineering degree, can you get into engineering grad school or get an engineering job? In some fields it will not be a problem because accreditation is not yet an expectation, in other fields it will be major problem with your application that will require some other significant “Wow” factor to overcome.</p>
<p>Is ABET the only acceptable engineering accreditation? To some schools, yes it is, but other schools accept other accrediting bodies.</p>
<p>sakky - when I originally stated that ABET was required for grad school, I was speaking in general terms. For whatever reason, you seem pretty persistent to hang your hat on a single specific anecdotal case. As I also previously stated, there are exceptions to everything. </p>
<p>I dont see why you don’t seem to accept the fact that in general, a non ABET undergrad degree can be a hindrance to grad school admissions. The overall point I was trying to make was that a non ABET degree can be a career hindrance. If you have something constructive to add, why dont you provide a counter argument to the contrary showing the benefits of a non ABET degree instead of arguing semantics and specifics?</p>
<p>Oh? When have I ever stated otherwise? Please point to the quote where I specifically said that having a non-ABET undergrad degree would not be a hindrance (rather than a necessity) in terms of admission to graduate engineering school. </p>
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<p>I believe I already have added something highly constructive: I have convinced people to back away from the notion that you ‘need’ an ABET- accredited engineering degree.</p>
<p>This thread could have been summed up with one broad answer…It depends on the school and the graduate major.</p>
<p>Hey, my masters degree in engineering is from University of Wisconsin which is ranked #10 in Industrial Engineering (the department that gave out my degree). I was a math major as an undergraduate but Wisky specifically says that it would consider math and physics majors.</p>
<p>Now the University of Arkansas told me basically “sorry sir, you do NOT have an ABET engineering degree so we cannot admit you to the M.S./M.Eng program but you can take our M.S. in Operations Management program and take a few engineering courses there…but thank you for your application and fee.”</p>
Then you have been fighting tooth and nail to prove that there are no absolutes? If I say that Dalmations are white with black spots are you going to argue endlessly because there was an albino Dalmation born white with pink spots? These boards are full of “rounding errors” where people make broad statements knowing that there are ALWAYS going to be exceptions - and you appear to be the only person protesting this understanding. Your unceasing attempt to prove that nothing is 100% have served only to obfuscate the issue and give the appearance that you personally think that accreditation is meaningless in grad admissions.</p>
<p>sakky - You have not convinced anyone that they don’t need an ABET degree. You simply made a thin and obviously debateable argument why they dont need it for grad school admissions under a very specific subset of conditions. Please, give me a few decent reasons why a professional and practicing engineer does not need an ABET accredited degree. Just a simple search on monster.com for ABET reveals over 200 jobs that specifically require ABET accredited degrees. I think this is proof enough that ABET does matter.</p>
<p>Who’s doing the ‘endless’ arguing? Seems to me that it takes two to tango. If I had simply been allowed to say my piece, then I would have said nothing more. The problem is that you guys continue to press the point that perhaps the guy in question had to retake all of his undergrad coursework (false), that perhaps I should offer examples of respectable grad eng schools who admit students with unaccredited bachelor’s degrees (which I then did), to even throwing out the BS flag (which was then quickly sundered). If anybody was obfuscating the issue by insisting on defending untenable positions, it wasn’t me. </p>
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<p>Well, I wasn’t aware that you spoke for everybody. </p>
<p>More importantly nor was I particularly arguing against the notion of desiring an ABET degree anyway. </p>
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<p>Let me put it to you this way. Would you recommend that somebody who wants to study bioengineering should always turn down Berkeley because of its lack of an accredited program in favor of Wright State University because their program is accredited? Similarly, would you recommend that somebody who wants to study aerospace engineering always turn down Stanford in favor of the Missouri University of Science and Technology?</p>
<p>Or maybe - just maybe - you’re willing to concede that those students perhaps don’t really need an ABET degree?</p>
Yep, we (or at least I) were arguing with you, but we were not arguing the same thing. That we argued with you when you appeared to have such a ridiculous position was 100% our fault.</p>
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I agree with him. That’s two of us.</p>
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Intentionally or not, you convinced a lot of us that this was your position. Well, at least two of us, but I haven’t seen a lot of support for your perceived position.</p>
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Once again, Bioengineering is too new for accreditation to be an expectation, and if you can FIND a recent aerospace undergrad from Stanford we can ask them. Regardless, these are ridiculous comparisons.</p>
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THESE students (again, assuming you can find a Stanford aerospace undergrad) don’t need it. That’s about a hundred engineering graduates a year. What about the rest?</p>
<p>Uh, was it my position that was ‘ridiculous’, or what you claimed to be my position that was ridiculous? I would posit that it was the latter, in which case you should be (and are) arguing only with yourselves. </p>
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<p>2=everybody? </p>
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<p>If you guys want to have an argument about what you think my ‘perceived’ position is, be my guest. </p>
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<p>Why? He asked for a few decent reasons why a practicing and professional engineer (lower case, not upper) would not need an ABET accredited degree. I would posit that forgoing such a degree for a better overall brand name and (almost certainly) superior recruiting access would be a few decent reasons. </p>
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<p>I was not required to talk about ‘the rest’. I was asked to provide a few decent reasons, and I did just that. QED.</p>
So, just to be clear, you ALSO think that ABET accreditation is valuable, important, and in most cases crucial for engineers in all but a handful of fields?</p>
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Yes, because I am absolutely literal in everything I say and so is everyone else on these forums. I could not possibly have been merely contributing a voice of assent.</p>
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Why? He asked for a few decent reasons why a practicing and professional engineer (lower case, not upper) would not need an ABET accredited degree. I would posit that forgoing such a degree for a better overall brand name and (almost certainly) superior recruiting access would be a few decent reasons. <a href=“1”>/quote</a> He was talking about civil and aerospace, and you provided one example that was neither and another example that didn’t actually graduate any undergraduates.
(2) Bereft of any other context, your statements read to me as a defense of the position that accreditation is not important in general. Am I wrong, do you feel that it is?</p>