Is he aiming too high?

College Search & Selection
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<p>And, conversely, it hurts to be applying to MIT as a white, middle class male. So, IMO, her son is reaching quite a bit without top scores and ECs. Would he be happy at a school where he may be in the bottom half of the class?</p>

<p>Having a few reaches is not bad, but focusing on schools with super-low acceptance rates is a poor strategy. The goal is to have a reasonable variety of acceptances come next April, and match schools (aka 50-50 schools) are the most likely place to find a student’s peer group.</p>

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<p>That would have to be a pretty exceptional applicant despite the rank. It’s a myth that MIT and Caltech have a different set of standards for male and female applicants. I interview many students who apply to MIT and the women who are admitted are at least as qualified as the men. They actually often have better transcripts and just as good test scores. It is just a more self-selecting group as very few unqualified female applicants apply to schools such as MIT or Caltech. Once at MIT , women actually have slightly higher GPAs than men on average. </p>

<p>With 93% of admitted MIT students, male and female, within the top 5% of their class and nearly half of the admitted students valedictorians, there is little room for students with less than stellar transcripts, whatever their test scores or other accomplishments. With a median math SAT score of 780, most admitted students have already shown they are smart. MIT doesn’t want to admit students who haven’t demonstrated they can handle the intense workload and a so-so transcript is a definite red flag. MIT routinely rejects USAMO qualifiers and Intel finalists, so math and science awards by themselves are no guarantee of admission, especially if the rest of the package does not fit.</p>

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<p>So if he is aiming TOO high - what would be reasonable goals? His Guidance counselor suggested Case Western Reserve - which seems like it might a good fit for both Math and Music as well as Boston University. I’d like to see him at a school where he would be intellectually challenged and the students are serious about their studies. He will work at subjects that interest him and will work very hard - he just hates having to do “busy” work for the sake of doing busy work. He usually gets all upper 90’s/100’s on his finals but due to not doing all the homework, etc. he does not get A’s. My brother who is a teacher at very prestigious private school said at his school they would not count the homework - if a kid is that bright and can get a 98 or 100 on a final he would get an A. I understand wanting to find a school where the student fits and is not struggling to keep up - I certainly felt this when my D applied to college but I’m not necessarily sure he’d be struggling to keep up if his HS GPA puts him at the bottom of the admits as he knows how to do the work and will do it if challenged/interested. Thanks for your help.</p>

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<p>jsmom – I tend to side with the posters advising caution. Look, in a separate thread yesterday I did some math and concluded that there are about 65,000 Vals and Sals exiting high schools in the US this year (assuming about 25% of HS have multiple Val/Sal.).</p>

<p>There are probably about 20,000 slots at Top 10 universities… you do that math! About 70% of the Sals/Vals will not be attending a top 10 school this August/September.</p>

<p>Bennie – I also have a number of Top 10 college beneficiaries in my extended family… most of us could not come CLOSE to getting in to the schools we did 15-25-35 years ago today. Applications are up over 70% compared to mid 70s, and the quality of the applications is much, much stronger than in “those normal times”. did you know Stanford accepted about 70% of its applicants back in the 1950s?</p>

<p>I’m suggesting that TODAY, a student with lots of Bs in core academic classes would have a less than 1% chance of admittance to a Top 10 school.s… even with 4000 SATs that chance would be under 5%.</p>

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<p>As to those reasonable goals, may I suggest you have a look at some threads entitled “Best school for a brilliant kid with average grades”, etc. UChicago, Reed, lots of schools I recall from reading those threads…</p>

<p>For your son, perhaps Carleton as a realistic reach?</p>

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<p>I’ll focus on the music major aspect. If he is talking about performance (i.e. a BM degree) the competition is intense and auditions are required for BM programs. It is very difficult to double major along with a BM program. A few kids do it, but not many.<br>
Look closely at Rice and UChicago. Chicago, in particular, looks beyond grades and scores.</p>

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<p>Dunn,</p>

<p>That 20,000 figure is too high according to my math. Dividing total undergrad enrollments by 4, the top 10 research universities as listed by US News have places for approximately 13,715 freshmen. The top 10 LACs add another 4,532, for a total (20 schools) of 18,247 (top 10 RUs + top 10 LACs). </p>

<p>Going a little further down the list, the top 25 research universities have places for just over 50,000 freshmen (but 16,000 of those are at just three big publics, UC Berkeley, UCLA, and UVA, and most of those slots will go to in-state applicants) The top 25 LACs (excluding the service academies, a special case) have seats for just under 12,000 new matriculants. So leaving aside the problem of in-state v. OOS enrollment at the publics, there are just about enough seats for every val/sal in the country to attend a top 25 university or top 25 LAC. </p>

<p>But of course not every val/sal will apply to, be accepted at, or enroll in a top 25 school. Some may not attend college at all. Some will go to their state flagship, or another state school, or their local community college. Some will go to a lower-ranked private school, chosen perhaps for its generous merit aid, location, religious affiliation, or special programs it offers, or because of family ties or personal allegiances. </p>

<p>Bottom line, you don’t need to be a val/sal to get into a top school, and applicants with ecellent grades, test scores, ECs, recs, essays, etc should keep in mind that the top schools are in a competition to land them, too, as are a lot of very good schools just slightly further down in the rankings. But I agree with those who say the Ivies, MIT, etc. will be high reaches for the OP’s kid. Aim there, to be sure, but don’t count on getting in, and be realistic in picking some matches and safeties that are somewhat less selective but still a good fit.</p>

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<p>Our val and sal quite typically go to the least impressive schools of our top 10… so that’s not the way to look at it.</p>

<p>2 things-- 1) Your kid has stats to make him competitive most places 2) If your kid wants to get into top places, it’s halfway through Jr. year-- it’s time to suck it up and not lose a grade on stupid hw assignments that probably won’t take an hour total a night. If he/she can’t do that, he/she is unlikely to be super successful at a top school anyway.</p>

<p>Take it from someone who manipulated his way through high school to ensure as little work as possible was done and is now at a top school-- you have got to be able to kick it very seriously into gear to be able to do well. For me, it hasn’t been a problem, but for some of my friends, it has been a huge problem. While I rarely did the HW everyone else was doing, I made deals with almost all of my teachers to do something different to ensure I kept my grades and didn’t waste my time.</p>

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<p>jsmom, I’d agree with the prevailing advice: proceed with caution. HYPSM are reaches for everyone. No one can say definitively that they will choose your son or someone else’s son, but the chance of acceptance for a “less than perfect” applicant (most likely about 90% of the applicant pool) is just fair. So, yes, apply, apply early if it suits him and fuggetaboutit.</p>

<p>Then the real work of building a reasonable and exciting list begins. Do some visiting if you haven’t already and see what atmosphere attracts. I’d suggest that your son take a look at Williams: also selective, but with excellent math and excellent music, with plenty of performance opportunities for non-majors as well. The combination of academics/music (or any of the arts)/sports is very appealing to Wiliams.</p>

<p>Generally speaking, small LACs value extracurriculars more than big schools because they need active multi-faceted kids who will contribute to the campus community in more than one area. They all have orchestras and bands that need musicians.</p>

<p>You haven’t mentioned your financial situation. With the financial meltdown, 2009 is uncharted territory. A lot of the guidelines of past years are going to be thrown out the window as families and colleges have a hard time raising cash. I think that kids who pay their own way will get a surreptitious boost and kids who need need based aid will enter a highly selective pool. Merit money – very, very competitive. And loans, who knows? I know this contradicts what we know about needblind policies and statements like “we guarantee to cover the expenses…” but that was last year. This year is something else.</p>

<p>I’d also mention that he should take care in choosing his recommenders. Any hint of “smart slacker” would be deadly at any of these high achieving schools. Find a teacher from a class where he actually did the homework. :)</p>

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<p>My suggestions:</p>

<p>-NYU (most probablly in)
-Harvard (no one knows for sure but your son is good enough)
-Northwestern (most probablly in)
-Princeton (no one knows for sure but your son is good enough)
-Yale (no one knows for sure but your son is good enough)</p>