<p>I have to agree with JmMom about dates and quotes not being the essence of a learned mind. A lot of that stuff was learned in HS already. I care more that my kids learn to think and to write in college and have their knowledge expanded about a wide variety of topics and skills.</p>
<p>Stickershock:</p>
<p>A college degree is and should not be a degree in civics. Students go to college to major in math, physics, biology, anthropology, politics, not in American history. My S will be required to take two courses in history. There is vast stretch of history to be studied. I don't see why a student who has already studied US history, however superficially, should take courses in American history once again over courses covering other societies in other periods s/he has never studied before.</p>
<p>If students graduate from high school not knowing the difference between the three branches of government, or Thomas Jefferson, blame it on k-12 education, not on colleges, and certainly not on having a crazed social scene in college. It's about curriculum, not about being studious.</p>
<p>Can students party their way through 4 years of college? Sure they can. And whether their major is history, English or business, they'll just have a fun time, cut classes, complain about the amount of readings, etc...Just read the article about ASU that was published about a year ago when it was described as the #1 party school. But I doubt that many Scarsdale students end up there. I have no idea whether there is a civics requirement at ASU. And I doubt that many of such hard core partiers end up at top colleges.</p>
<p>The funny thing is that while my S was in high school, I kept on telling him that college would be easier. He was taking 2 APs and 1 college class plus various other honors classes. His courseload was 8 classes. He now has 4 classes and he works far harder than he did in high school.</p>
<p>I am talking about two different sets of issues here because the author mixes things up: curriculum and workload. But I'd rather not.</p>
<p>Poor teachers, poor curriculum, low expectations may be ther reasons why high school students who have taken American History "several times since first grade" can't identify a quote by Thomas Jefferson.</p>
<p>To be able to do so,
a) teacher would have to CARE about identifying quotes by anyone, TJ included - and they don't necessarily
b) curriculum would expect students to identify quotes - and it doesn't necessarily
c) it's not on the state standards test so why require this knowledge in the first place - an all too apparent a reason in this day and age of schools/teacher funding depended on state test scores</p>
<p>There are many reasons why Americans don't know their history or anyone else's either. The social scene in college doesn't appear to be one of them.</p>
<p>....So I think the consensus is, ignorant journalist at the least, if not crazed herself.</p>
<p>Re: c) Our GOP candidate for governor is suggesting that all students should be tested TWICE a year. I'm sure it will leave lots of time to discuss the origins of WWI, or why Bostonians dumped tea into the harbor, or the differences between the various Founding Fathers.</p>
<p>I have to agree with Marite that there are two different issues. One has to do with sloughing off and the crazed social party scene and lack of workload. The other has to do with curriculum. </p>
<p>As far as curriculum goes, things like learning about Thomas Jefferson belong to the K-12 curriculum. In college, one takes many subjects and learns many things, but these should not be the same things that the HS curriculum was meant to cover. I have one D taking a course in Power and Politics in America right now and another in the History of Medieval Architecture in Italy (I may have the title wrong). I frankly don't care which historical and worldly topics they each "cover" because their knowledge base is expanded, as well as their thinking and writing skills. I don't think every college kid needs the same curriculum. That was what K-12 was for. I don't give a care if my kids study US History, for example, in college. They are getting an education and are coming out with a broader knowledge base, ability to think, to write, and with expertise and skills in their chosen field of concentration, as well.</p>
<p>Epiphany, I don't know if you can call Naomi Schaefer Riley a journalist. She is an adjunct fellow at the Ethics and Public Policy Center, and frequent contributor to newspapers etc. such as the WSJ.</p>
<p>Well I won't quibble about that. Temporarily a journalist, perhaps. However, if, as you indicate, she contributes pretty regularly to public discussion, she'd do well to be a reality checker as well as a fact checker -- and especially while she's accusing college students of ignorance. How about a little role modeling, Ms. Riley?</p>
<p>I think some important points have been made, though, about the myth that the absence of a core equates with absence of rigor, in quality & quantity. Not an equation.</p>
<p>There is a crazed social scene for those who want it at Brown and elswhere. There is also exhaustive academic rigor on a very high level. My kid too goes to Brown and his classes too have been extremely rigorous but it is possible to go through Brown without doing so much work --it is possible to avoid the rigor in many places and many ways. Some kids he knows at Brown barely go to class or do much work and spend much of the week on Beer pong, yet they pull Bs and will graduate. Others work like crazy and achieve great academic success --there's more than one path through.</p>
<p>If you hope for grad school or med school and you ignore the rigor and coast it's you're funeral though. There is a lot at stake, as opposed to what this author says. My other kid has seen a very crazed social scene at Vassar but you do not have to be part of it --there's something for everyone.</p>
<p>I do not take issue with the writer on that score --it is about the individual student. THAT is why it takes more than an Ivy degree to get into the top grad programs and why they take State U kids too. It is only fair that we reevaluate again when the four years are up. Not everyone who got to Ivy after high school has proven stellar thereafter.</p>
<p>College is not high school --we do not want to repeat the same curriculum so it's good some basics are covered in high school.</p>
<p>Not knowing precisely what is meant by "crazed social scene," my S is having the time of his life, never happier. There are plenty of parties, paint ball outings, hanging out, etc., but the real thrill has been in the intellectual climate, interchanges, and challenges he encounters in and out of class on a daily basis. </p>
<p>As for what students gain in college in the way of skills, here is what occupational sociologist Andrew Abbott in a brief review of the literature has to say about that:
[quote]
...there is no consistent evidence for a substantial net effect (say a 20 percent or more positive effect) of college instruction on oral communication skills, written communication skills, general reflective judgment, or intellectual flexibility, although there is moderate evidence for minor effect in all these areas. Second, there seems to be consistent evidence that college instruction has a medium-sized effect (about 10 to 15 percentage points) on general verbal and quantitative skills. But this seems to be a matter of “use it or lose it.” College makes you keep using the skills learned in high school, whereas many forms of employment don’t. Finally, college does seem to have a substantial net effect in the area of critical thinking. However, research on that topic has often not been controlled for age, making it difficult to separate out the effect of college attendance from that of sheer maturation. These findings are not all from elite colleges, but we can still infer that there is not much evidence for a large net effect of college on cognitive functioning. You were smart people when you got in here and you’re going to be smart people when you get out, as long as you use that intelligence for something—it doesn’t matter what—while you are here.
[/quote]
<p>Since no one has, I should point out that the source of the primary data for this report is highly suspect. The ISI is a right-wing organization whose reason for existence is to call for more required courses that support their viewpoint (think Thomas Sowell and "Choosing the RIGHT College"). If they are going to report a survey of the quality of education in the only thing they care about (pushing the right agenda), then you can be sure it would declare the current state to be dismal. Ask them about how much the students are learning about tissue engineering or particle physics.</p>
<p>Just thought I'd chime in...</p>
<p>We visited DS at Dartmouth yesterday, and took several of his friends to lunch. Midterms start Monday, so they all seemd a little stressed. DS has pulled a few all-nighters already on homework sets, and I know he's not getting enough sleep. Freshman year he seemed to do more social activities, but since he and his friends are now taking upper division classes in their respective majors, the workload seems to be intense. Most seem to feel that college is much harder than their various Prep schools, and I know my son worked hard in HS. </p>
<p>He's had APUSH and world history in HS. He'll never be a history major, and I feel confident that he'll become more aware of government issues as he gets older, buys a house, raises a family etc.</p>
<p>But for now, I'd prefer to see him concentrate on the classes in his major, since how he applies himself now may determine his prospects for graduate school.</p>
<p>I think my son is enjoying a crazed social scene at Penn. He is also studying hard and trying to rehab for his sport. It appears that the partying occurs on Thurs, Fri and Sat nights. He is loving college and taking advantage of all Penn and Philadelphia have to offer.<br>
I took the article to be somewhat tongue in cheek, actually.</p>
<p>Actually, there was an article in our paper this weekend about the "crazed social scene" at Miami of Oxford. Apparently there is a huge drinking problem and the kids complain there is nothing else to do in the small college town.</p>
<p>Authorities say they are doing their best to combat the problem, but what does this say about the college? The coursework is too easy? workload too light? not enough extracurriculars available? or too large a concentration of spoiled & entitled young kids? Is this a problem on other similar campuses? </p>
<p>I am just curious. I know my kids, like those of previous posters, (and not at Miami!) are working their butts off with problem sets, labs, and papers, not to mention acappella groups, programming competitions, ultimate frisbee, and midnight flag football.</p>