<p>disagree completely.. there are some top schools throughout the country that are very tough and prepare you for college. In fact id have to say that the graduating students comment that college is easier than high school. :/ I agree with come porints that weighted gpas are bs. Some people that get Bs in AP classes have a 4.0</p>
<p>HSisOverrated,</p>
<p>I'm saying that the there might be a confluence of excellent children in homeschooling situations to begin with. It may be that they are, by nature, more excellent students. I don't know, as I haven't seen all the data to make a decision.</p>
<p>I do know that your argument sounds like it suffers from a spurious correlation somewhere, though. Yes, it's true that homeschool kids do better than their public school counterparts according to some metrics, but what the reason for that is is unclear without the right data.</p>
<p>On the homeschooling -</p>
<p>The number 1 correlation for test scores is with parental income. To be Homeschooled you generally need to have a parent who is able to not work. This correlates with higher income.</p>
<p>So, it is just like why the top high schools are generally in high income areas, homeschoolers GENERALLY are higher income.</p>
<p>That makes sense, and would make for a better explanation than "homeschooling is inherently better."</p>
<p>I have never seen any good studies about how homeschoolers perform on standardized tests. Part of the problem with doing such studies is that regulations vary widely from state to state. In some states, there is no requirement for registration or even much of anything in the way of record-keeping. The state I live in does not know how many homeschoolers there are, how many children are affected, and requires no documentation about their studies. </p>
<p>I homeschooled one of my children for most of elementary school. My experience is that, in this state at least, there is great variety of reasons for homeschooling: children may be very advanced intellectually; children may be behind their peers and parents want to give them more one on one; children may be immature; parents may wish to introduce more values/religion into the curriculum; in my case, parent may have big problems with the way the assigned school is run and just be fed up with parents' wishes being ignored.</p>
<p>Some homeschoolers are affluent; some are not at all affluent, but one parent is staying home to raise a large brood. </p>
<p>Some operate as part of a consortium, some are completely do-it-alone types.</p>
<p>It would take a very well designed study to come to any general conclusions about the efficacy of home-schooling. The first problem would be to define what a good outcome looks like.</p>
<p>I'm a big supporter of educational options and parents' rights, and I support the right of parents to homeschool even if it bothers me that some of the parents are not themselves very well educated.</p>
<p>Generalizations are no more useful when discussing homeschooling than when discussing traditional schools.</p>
<p>Thank you, Midmo. I know a number of homeschoolers, and their reasons for choosing that option vary, as does their level of achievement.</p>
<p>Our high school is nothing like the grade-inflating hellhole HSisOverrated imagines. </p>
<p>Firstly, it does not weight grades at all. Only the top 10% has an average of A- or higher (that is, at or above 93). Bright kids take AP classes anyway, despite the greater workload, and for the right reasons: the material is more interesting, the class moves faster, and the other participants are more motivated. In other words, they learn more. In my son's class, the average score on the AP exam that most of them took sophomore year was 4.5 or so. So apparently that course, anyway, didn't have fake content.</p>
<p>Most of the top students also devote significant time to activities such as theater, debate, athletics, and music because they want to, not in order to rack up some pseudo ECs. I happen to know that the kid with the highest SATs in the class never took a course or hired a tutor, although some kids certainly do take a prep course.</p>
<p>Whether any of this serves them well when they come up against weighted GPAs and obsessively-accumulated "leadership" in ECs in college admissions is another matter, of course.</p>
<p>At my school, there is about 30-35 out of 800+ kids taking AP classes. Honors classes have no weight, but AP classes get an extra point, with the exception of a D where a 1.0 would still be recieved. In my opinion, these 30-35 students deserve the extra point. Also, my school doesnt offer many AP's, so unless you're a transfer, you can't get higher than a 4.25-4.3. All I have to say is take the SAT and subject tests and see how well you do. Colleges realize that GPA varies from high school to high school, but the SAT doesn't lie. Stop ur bichin'!</p>
<p>At my kids' high schools, they GPA's are unweighted. There is no grade inflation. I was concerned that it would hurt them to merely have a 3.85 ( 3.0=b, 3.3=b+, 3.7=A-, and 4.0=A)instead of some of these kids that have 4.5 or some other number. AP classes were not given any extra points and are truly college level work. It is a private school where all graduates go to college. So, not all high schools inflate the grades.</p>
<p>Also, all the admissions officers we have spoken to look at each student in context to their high school. They quickly learn what a GPA means at the high school where the applicant is from. Not to mention, ACT, SAT, SAT II's, interviews and essays. In the end, they ususally can evaluate each student very well.</p>
<p>I bust my butt for my weighted GPA points. I'm hardly a zombie and while I agree that there are things severely wrong with American education, I don't think that grade weighting is the source of it all. I felt ready for college at the end of middle school academically. After writing 2 30 page papers, one narrative fiction and one research, taking a step back to "honors" level courses was laughable. It wasn't as easy as the regular World History class that my friend's teacher taught, where the only way she could get kids to read The Time Machine (omg! 150 pages!) was to read it to them. If the system was purely unweighted, there would have been a GPA incentive to take lower level classes instead of higher level ones. </p>
<p>So I took the only AP course they'd let me take and the only credit they gave me for it was honors. I made a B first semester when my friends in my old class talked about how they colored maps of Africa. I took a GPA hit because of it, I don't regret it at all. Made an A 2nd Semester and a 5 on the exam. It was a hard class, not some systematic regurgitation bore-fest. My teacher had degrees from Dartmouth and Duke. In 10th grade, I couldn't take any APs because I changed schools so I took 9 classes. Do you get the sense that I was bored and looking for a challenge?</p>
<p>That brings us to junior and senior years, where myself and many of my peers took entirely AP courseloads. Now I agree that weighted systems can go overboard, but I have to say that a C in my AP Econ class would be much harder to pull than a regular economics class. Besides, colleges these days are looking at the difficulty of your courseload more and more. You can criticize my weighted courseload all you want with its 7 APs (and gym, woohoo) but I spend 6 or 7 hours a night, 6 nights per week doing homework and studying for those classes. I don't know any kids with "regular" courseloads who pull all nighters and have 14 hour academic days. I don't do this for my class rank or for getting in to college but simply because if I didn't, I would be bored and unmotivated about continuing my education.</p>
<p>midmo,</p>
<p>Generalizations are, unfortunately, the only real way to discuss groups. How could we EVER get any economics done if we didn't generalize? ;)</p>
<p>I've also known a number of people who are homeschooling because their kids were so precocious public schools weren't a good fit. They didn't want to/weren't able to radically accelerate their kids. I think a significant fraction of homeschooler's are homeschooling gifted kids. (No proof, just what I've personally observed.) And yes most of the homeschoolers I know are middle to upper middle class.</p>
<p>+++On the homeschooling -</p>
<p>The number 1 correlation for test scores is with parental income. To be Homeschooled you generally need to have a parent who is able to not work. This correlates with higher income.++++</p>
<p>Not necessarily. I think the image of homeschool is largely distorted. The majority of homeschoolers aren't country kids with housewive mother's who can teach reading all day and all night. I know plenty of kids with mom's and dad's who work and they are homeschooled. Being homeschooled doesn't necessarily mean your trapped in the closet all day, but rather gives you more options than an ordinarily strict (and at times, inflexible for some students) high school. For example, kids who are homeschooled aren't limited to the demanding schedule of regular high school. They can whatever they, whenever they want, allowing for them to invest more time in subjects they are really interested in. Many homeschool kids are not independent, but connected through a state-funded program or charter. Homeschool kids are allocated a certain number of dollars for materials by the state, however having a base is nice because it offers more social and even academic opportunities (many "bases" have weekly classes in certain subjects, or tutoring etc..).</p>
<p>Ninja:</p>
<pre><code>++++I bust my butt for my weighted GPA points. I'm hardly a zombie and while I agree that there are things severely wrong with American education, I don't think that grade weighting is the source of it all. I felt ready for college at the end of middle school academically. After writing 2 30 page papers, one narrative fiction and one research, taking a step back to "honors" level courses was laughable. It wasn't as easy as the regular World History class that my friend's teacher taught, where the only way she could get kids to read The Time Machine (omg! 150 pages!) was to read it to them. If the system was purely unweighted, there would have been a GPA incentive to take lower level classes instead of higher level ones.++++
</code></pre>
<p>I know how you feel, but be glad you're getting the credit you deserved. The majority of AP kids who I know (about 10) are not under the same limitations as you. They take 4 or 5 courses, get some B's and C's, and end up with a higher GPA than me - even though I know they've been reading the same books and been issued identical essay prompts.</p>
<p>Please consider not all teachers are Darthmouth and Duke graduates, the level of grading varies from absurd to pathetic - pathetic seems to be the majority, as most high schools cannot cope with half a junior class taking at least one AP. Teachers are stretched thin, both emotionally and financially...especially in risky areas (major cities, for example).</p>
<p>I've never been giving extra points or extra credit, although keep in mind I'm still stuck in Algebra and Language year one (However, the middle school I intended offered no electives that could be transferred to high school), even though I believe the work I've been assigned was at a difficulty equal or greater than AP. I wrote a paper commenting and analyzing ATOC, and received a B+. I had a teacher friend of mine review it, and was told it was beyond A worthy - not that I really cared. I'm glad I have good teachers, but to know that more kids are passing classes with flying colors disturbs me, since I know they're just going to be another dolt I'll have to deal with when admissions year comes around. </p>
<p>Be glad your school offers so many opportunities. I like the personal environment of my education, but would rather have AP sooner than later....</p>
<p>Hopefully my writing will compensate - I'm not sure how much weight an essay will carry at an Ivy school...</p>
<p>Consolotion:</p>
<pre><code>++Thank you, Midmo. I know a number of homeschoolers, and their reasons for choosing that option vary, as does their level of achievement.++
</code></pre>
<p>This statement is unnecessary and anecdotal. Replace homeschoolers with public schoolers and you'll receive the same result, not compelling at all. </p>
<p>Homeschoolers in my state are TWO grades ahead of public schoolers. Private are around 1-ish, although that is more debatable since qualify of private schools are quite a spectrum. : ) </p>
<p>+++
I have never seen any good studies about how homeschoolers perform on standardized tests.+++</p>
<p>"Good" studies? What are bad studies are you referring to? I can google some "studies" if you really want me to, though I'm sure you could in couple of seconds. As I've mentioned, homeschoolers rank well above the average public schooler - in both testing and ability to work. Not to mention colleges love homeschoolers, since they are fully aware of their independent frame of mind and the degree of contribution it will to their school. An asian friend of mine from Kindergarten couldn't stand private school, and quickly switched to homeschool in 5th grade. By grade 8, he had already graduated high school, and when he turned 15, you enrolled in University and graduated within 3 years. I have no idea what he's doing now...probably genius-related things. XD</p>
<p>Public schools are quite effective in dealing and rejecting the not-so-academic folks, and the average are balanced out well. But for many super-achievers, the average high school won't cut it. </p>
<p>+++
. It may be that they are, by nature, more excellent students. +++</p>
<p>Is this some evolutionary property that I am unaware of? There is no scientific explanation for excelling homeschool students. They aren't naturally willed to excel or have some sort of Xman gene that Marvel forget to mention.</p>
<p>The environmental is much more flexible than P.S, and accommodations can be made without having to deal with politically correct or state-agenda driven heads. </p>
<p>For some, homeschool is too escaping, not enough rules and not enough over watch. For others, homeschool allows for more opportunities and allowances unfounded in ordinary education. </p>
<p>+++
You say that you are homeschooled, correct? What makes you an authority on the subject of public schooling, then?+++</p>
<p>What are you implying? That what I say is incorrect? Fallacies will not prove a point, my friend. I'm sure you've been taught that at public school.</p>
<p>For the record: No, I'm sort of homeschooled. I missed half of primary education, and didn't even attend middle school. Think of me as an academic reject, now trying to recoup his losses. XD
+++
I agree that some schools have the aforementioned problems, but to generalize the entirety of American public schools is overreaching to say the least.+++</p>
<p>I'm not generalizing, just stating facts. American public schools are:</p>
<p>A) Overpopulated
B) Underfunded (NCLBA, thank you!)
C) Academically segregated
D) Academically lacking
E) OVERPOPULATED</p>
<p>I intended a local high school for 4 days, and I honestly couldn't tell the difference from visiting the local prison in 5th grade (weird field trip). </p>
<p>1,500 kids forced to walk through metal detectors day in and day out, 5 officers armed and ready to fire on a moments noticed, faculty who do not come within 10 ft of a student in fear of being stabbed or raped, students who are have no intention to learn, or are dragged by the unwelcomed and lackies who have not received proper accommodations, etc..etc..</p>
<p>Even the best high school will never compare to the flexible environment home schooling allows. Sorry to disappoint.</p>
<p>+++And yes most of the homeschoolers I know are middle to upper middle class.+++</p>
<p>I'm sure you know, anecdotal evidence is not submittable. XD</p>
<p>edit: Apologies for mechanics and errors (several spelling I see), I'm really not that stupid. : )</p>
<p>Haven't slept in 20 hours. Yay!</p>
<p>HSis, maybe you hs is one of the few that are getting easier.</p>
<p>+++HSis, maybe you hs is one of the few that are getting easier.+++</p>
<p>Maybe. XD</p>
<p>A) Correct
B) Correct
C) Correct
D) Correct
E) CORRECT</p>
<p>HS, you're exactly right, ESPECIALLY about academically segregated. My education has been the way it is because I was in a program that was an academic magnet. My county pools all its APs at one school where students drive to take classes in addition to classes at their "home schools." This means I deal with a <em>tiny</em> and very driven segment of the population. To me, this is what makes the difference in an education. In a home school environment, you have more control about what kind of kids you're around. Most high school students I've met are generally unmotivated and more interested in other things. I apologize for missing the overall core of your argument and focusing on the GPA issue. Ultimately, we need major education reform in the country. Ron Paul wants to axe the Dept of Education, that's a start.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Is this some evolutionary property that I am unaware of? There is no scientific explanation for excelling homeschool students. They aren't naturally willed to excel or have some sort of Xman gene that Marvel forget to mention.</p>
<p>The environmental is much more flexible than P.S, and accommodations can be made without having to deal with politically correct or state-agenda driven heads. </p>
<p>For some, homeschool is too escaping, not enough rules and not enough over watch. For others, homeschool allows for more opportunities and allowances unfounded in ordinary education.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>You're missing the point. I'm saying that there's a good chance that homeschoolers, as a cohort, are more academically qualified individuals. Kind of like how students at boarding schools tend to be better students than those at public schools. We have to control for that in any study of them.</p>
<p>How did they become more academically qualified? Are you suggesting they are initially more intelligent than public schoolers...??</p>
<p>Some clarification would be appreciated..</p>
<p>I'm saying that they homeschoolers may as a cohort be more likely to be intelligent people. Think of it this way.</p>
<p>Most basketball players are tall. However, if you were trying to do a study of height in America, using basketball players as a sample would be a really bad idea. </p>
<p>Similarly, you are arguing that homeschoolers outperform their public school counterparts. However, it may not be the curriculum that's doing it, but they may be more exceptional people to begin with. </p>
<p>If I were designing a statistical model to explain homeschooling success, I would be mostly concerned with controlling for the inherent differences between the two cohorts (homeschooled vs. non-homeschooled). The curriculum matters, but I think it's probably an economic variable causing the most variation in the means.</p>
<p>++++I'm saying that they homeschoolers may as a cohort be more likely to be intelligent people. Think of it this way.++++</p>
<p>Okay..</p>
<p>+++
Most basketball players are tall. However, if you were trying to do a study of height in America, using basketball players as a sample would be a really bad idea.
++++</p>
<p>Okay...</p>
<p>+++
Similarly, you are arguing that homeschoolers outperform their public school counterparts. However, it may not be the curriculum that's doing it, but they may be more exceptional people to begin with.
+++</p>
<p>So you're saying only those that portray intelligent qualities consist of the majority of homeschoolers?</p>
<p>This is rather foolish thinking. Homeschooling allows students to learn more effectively, as the entire focus is put on LEARNING, not unnecessary testing or text geared towards testing (excluding SATs). Millions of kids are homeschooled, some for mental reasons, some for physical reasons, some for disciplinatory reasons, etc..</p>
<p>++++
If I were designing a statistical model to explain homeschooling success, I would be mostly concerned with controlling for the inherent differences between the two cohorts (homeschooled vs. non-homeschooled). The curriculum matters, but I think it's probably an economic variable causing the most variation in the means.+++</p>
<p>Okay, so now you're saying the increasing academic properties of homeschooling compared to public schooling is the result of alleged-economically fortunate families? </p>
<p>Now you're just making baseless assumptions to prove a point. I'm not debating what kind of statistic model you would design to cherry-pick data, the facts remain. Homeschoolers, just like public schoolers, share a broad range of life styles and social status. Not all homeschoolers are rich, and not all public schoolers are poor.</p>