<p>I’d like to see the numbers too. </p>
<p>However to be honest, AA hurts whites possibly more than asians because the majority of the white (especially male) slots are being taken up by recruited athletes. Just go on Princeton’s (or any ivy for that matter) sports rosters and look at the players. They are 90% white.</p>
<p>If you are unhooked and white its nearly impossible these days.</p>
<p>
To test your hypothesis I pulled up 4 random teams. Every one of them was less than 90% white.</p>
<p>
Let me correct that for you.</p>
<p>If you are unhooked its nearly impossible these days.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Okay. Then if you want to get into a top college, get hooked.</p>
<p>I’m a minority, but I’m not for Affirmative Action. I don’t think it’s fair or right to people who aren’t minorities, but I don’t think it’s why I got into Princeton.</p>
<p>“Test scores are not everything”</p>
<p>Yes, keep up the racism. Asians are just test-taking math robots who have no creativity and spend all their time preparing for standardized tests.</p>
<p>Clearly this is a subjective area…but I guarantee that whites and Asians have just as many leadership positions, volunteer hours, sports activities, science awards, humanities awards, sports awards…“HOLISTIC” stuff as URM students do. In fact, I’d wager they have more. Someone could make the case that Asians and whites are on average better applicants both considered holistically and through numbers.</p>
<p>So now we’re at this concept of diversity somehow influencing your academic pursuits. I believe it does. However, instead of pursuing intellectual diversity in a straightforward manner (i.e. through the HOLISTIC process), admissions officers pursue intellectual diversity through ethnic/racial/geographical diversity which is neither efficient nor fair. Most of all it’s not accurate. A black kid and a white kid from Iowa could be very similar in intellectual pursuits whereas two black kids from Iowa could be really different and two white kids from Iowa could be really different. If you try and create an intellectually diverse class you will get ethnic/racial/geographical diversity. Doing it the other way around is backwards and can lead to a lot of hostility among the uninformed. Yeah maybe that way you’ll end up with 2 percent fewer Hispanic Americans or whatever. Who cares? “Everyone is qualified” as you said.</p>
<p>@babyaztec you touch upon an important point. With affirmative action, successful URMs have to face another kind of discrimination their entire lives. “Oh you just got into Harvard because you’re black!” </p>
<p>Haven’t you guys heard the phrase “the affirmative-action president” in reference to President Obama? I’m sure he was qualified for Columbia, HLaw, HLawReview. People who are very skilled in “legal stuff” said his policy papers, etc. were very good. But even so, his accomplishments are devalued due to affirmative action, at least on first impression. The policy also hurts successful URMs and breeds resentment from whites and Asians.</p>
<p>“This thread is one of the big reasons I stayed away from this site for so long.” → this.</p>
<p>To those who make derogatory comments about URMs here and elsewhere: nobody is entitled to a spot at Princeton or any school. Nobody. And anybody who IS admitted, is capable of surviving / thriving at Pton regardless of race. Therefore – who are you to say that the admissions committee didn’t do a good job when they picked that student? “Holistic” admissions can be based on whatever the hell the adcoms want. I personally wish that Princeton was more diverse, not less.</p>
<p>If you’re bitter about AA, I ask you to consider this: you will almost certainly still get admitted to plenty of good schools. Why are you so bitter? Pton (and the Ivy League) is not the end-all, be-all of education, and treating it like some sort of holy sacrament is stupid. I say this as someone who loves my school. Yes, it’s obviously easier for me on the other side of the tunnel, but still.</p>
<p>Sorry-not-sorry if I’m bitter about the whole “debate.” Too often it turns to ad hominem attacks.</p>
<p>So yes, AA hurting Asians = a fantastic topic and something I believe is indeed a problem. Let’s tackle the problem of legacy admits and athletic recruits! Let’s talk about the issue of admitting underperforming URMs just to boost your diversity stats! (Hint: not really a problem at a school with so many potential “fits” in the applicant pool, like this one, but at others.) But you don’t have to denigrate URM applicants/students by doing so, which is often what happens here and elsewhere.</p>
<p>The fact that people can be racist (re BiologyMaster’s last post) is not a substantial argument against AA, in my book. </p>
<p>I feel like this needs to be said, because the personal attacks DO happen far too often (aka – that they happen at all is a travesty). </p>
<p>I believe this thread was originally about something else…? :P</p>
<p>Here’s Harvard lightweight crew:</p>
<p>1 African American (Robert Hawthorne)
1 Hispanic (Kevin Hernandez)
2 International (Euorpean)
1 Asian
42 white</p>
<p>Thats ~ 90% white.</p>
<p>Regardless, I think you’re missing the point. MY point is simply the white slots are primarily filled by athletes making admissions that more difficult for Caucasians.</p>
<p>Also, Harvard volleyball:</p>
<p>13 White</p>
<p>100% White.</p>
<p>You need to explain to me how White people having a disproportionate access to the athletic hook disadvantages Caucasians.</p>
<p>Back to the original question, Princeton is known to be the ivy that accepts more on the basis of scores, gpa, and rank. So it’s no surprising that those accepted have such high quantitative scores.</p>
<p>And to those arguing affirmative action, even though I’m completely against affirmative action, there’s no point in arguing about it on an online forum… It doesn’t change anything and the time spent arguing here would be better spent doing other things. Good luck to everyone to those deferred and congrats to those accepted!</p>
<p>When you look at these team rosters, most of the kids came from prep schools, which are of course whites/wealthy have greater access to. That said, it greatly disadvantages those Caucasians who aren’t wealthy and don’t attend prep school.</p>
<p>Please read the following essay entitled “Admissions Messages vs. Admissions Realities”
by the former admissions dean for Reed College:</p>
<p>[Reed</a> College | Admission | Reed College Admission Office](<a href=“http://www.reed.edu/apply/news_and_articles/admission_messages.html]Reed”>http://www.reed.edu/apply/news_and_articles/admission_messages.html)</p>
<p>I disagree that top US colleges discriminate against Asians per se. They discriminate against students who are not multi dimensional. Many whites and Asians fit this bill according to the following scenarios.</p>
<p>I also disagree with this thought: " it is sometimes true that an Asian student with a given set of scores/GPA/etc. may be rejected in favor of another applicant of any other ethnic background with lower statistics."</p>
<p>Here’s why I disagree: Top colleges have unofficial quotas and targets for various sub categories. Be they ethnic groups, be they super scientists, musicians, athletes, etc. Once those categories and their allotted spots are calculated, then each applicant is compared within that group – sometimes these applicants cross several groups (all the better for them – the super scientist who happens to be an All State women’s point guard).</p>
<p>For example: let’s say X is the number of slots are slated for a URM. Y number of slots are allocated for athletes. Z number of slots are allocated for super musicians/actors. Everyone who is of these sub-groups will then vie for those slots among themselves.</p>
<p>If the South Asian kid isn’t in any of those three groups, she is in what I would call the “general” pool. She gets to vie for a slot with everyone else in the general pool.</p>
<p>you could have an athlete who is pretty good – but not good enough to make the team. No slot from Y is given to him. But he has great academics and he’s pushed into the general pool – 2nd chance!</p>
<p>The South asian kid gets no second chance. As a matter of fact, kids who don’t get slots in Y or Z filter down and dilute her chances. Here’s the thing: SHE NEVER WAS ELIGIBLE FOR X, Y OR Z.</p>
<p>The URMs in group X? The so called “mediocre” SAT kid in that group – pushes out someone with even worse SATs of that same URM. Those slots in X were never open to kids in the General pool-- never were. That “mediocre” kid doesn’t keep out the Asian kid as much as he would keep out the “OK” athlete.</p>
<p>Those slots were allocated before the first app came in.</p>
<p>But also exists this fact. Schools will have minimum requirements of kids in the X pool. If not enough qualified applicants fill the allotted slots, X actually gets those taken away and they are given to other pools. One can argue that a school actually is accepting less X URMs than they would desire.</p>
<p>That’s my take on things. It mirrors what I’ve seen and experienced first hand. </p>
<p>And if it seems or feels unfair, the most affected sub group is the internationals. They get the shaft – highest GPA/test scores – lowest admit rates. But you don’t get people decrying how unfair it is for Harvard to put a ceiling on kids from Saudi or Singapore. Admissions slots are a zero sum game. Someone has to decide who gets what. Terrible business – but the top Privates don’t want to become UCBerkley or IIT or Seoul University.</p>
<p>T26E4, I disagree. Admissions to any university should be completely meritocratic - or at least completely independent of the applicants’ ethnic backgrounds. Diversity is nice, but should it really lead to admitting a mediocre student over a more qualified minority student? </p>
<p>At just about every Ivy, you’ll see the following “diversity:”</p>
<p>White (non-Hispanic): ~50%
Asian : 15-25%
Others: 25 - 35%</p>
<p>Essentially, if you’re an Asian, your foremost competition will be other Asians. Judging by the fact that the proportions at most Ivies are approximately the same, it’s almost certain that some demographic. pooling selection is done. Contrast that with a school like Caltech, where 40% of the student body is Asian-American, and only 35% Caucasian-American. </p>
<p>Also, Caltech and UC Berkeley are on par with the Ivies. Who cares about rankings?</p>
<p>Bio: I will die out in the next generation – I suspect I have about a few score years left in this mortal coil. My trainer wife is majestically trying to keep me from kicking off too quickly though.</p>
<p>BTW: while thank you for your concern about my college admissions, I’m beyond that. I was an Asian applicant who got the lucky zero rejects from schools applied, incl multiple Ivies. I ended up matriculating at an HYP and have interviewed and recruited for them ever since, including heavily focusing in on my alma mater school district, a completely failed urban district w/only a handful of successful elite level students each year.</p>
<p>You misread me when you think I somehow imply Asians can’t also be athletes. In my discourse, I was specifically speaking of “un hooked” Asians and Whites. If someone could be pooled under another category such as recruited athlete or super musician, race wouldn’t matter whatsoever. And for one who says rankings aren’t so big, your attack on Reed college is surprising. However, if you read the article, the information shared by the writer of how selective private college admissions operates should be enlightening. But hey, that’s me. My discussion above is not advocating the system per se but my attempt to explain how it practically operates. Did you read the Reed article or is your nausea preventing that?</p>
<p>Xenophobia? How does advocating holistic admissions equate to my view of foreigners/strangers? I gotta dig out my old SAT prep books to look that one up.</p>
<p>As for the desire oft-cited for all schools to go to Meritocracy only, consider this: You can’t have your cake and eat it too*</p>
<p>You can’t charge the ivory towered Ivies with torches and pitchforks in hand and demand they change a fundamental philosophy, and in the same breath, demand entrance to join in with their so-called prestige and whatnot.</p>
<p>Princeton and other top privates admit whom they want, at the levels they want. Certainly they can dictate quotas of International students, no? How about more recruits for sport X which has been in decline? How about a new emphasis on one dept (e.g. STEM majors at Yale)? How about preference for music or science/math prodigies? How about maintaining close to a 50/50 gender mix?</p>
<p>The # of open slots is a zero sum game. Someone has to decide – and they do. They choose that mix and adjust it as they see fit – all with the goal to meet the institution’s needs first and foremost. However they determine mix (or “diversity”), they can effect it.</p>
<p>But let’s look at the ramifications of this supposed “nefarious” and “unfair” policy. The so-called “elite” college lists are rife with schools that practice this very method of student intake. Yet the marketplace continues to reward them more and more and more. Both HS students/families, their alumni donors and corporations/grad schools who come calling. Why is that? </p>
<p>Certainly many of these schools have wonderful resources – but it’s also because of the student mix that the “meritocracy only” advocates would dismantle while in another eye blink are looking to increase their own chances of admission in any way possible. Having cake, eating cake.</p>
<p>Now my asterisk above centers on a few top US schools that,for the most part, indeed practice meritocracy only. MIT, CalTech, UCB. Wonderful, go for it. Indeed, most every other non-US college uses the “meritocracy only” model too. They include extremely prestigious names such as IIT, Seoul, U Tokyo, etc. And guess what? Numerically, those who wish to search for “meritocracy only” schools – you hit the jackpot. Indeed about 85% of the remaining US colleges utilize this admissions filter! Yippee! Drive down to your local college on August 25th, show them your hard-fought 2150 SAT and show them your 4.1267 weighted GPA and the admissions officer’s next phrase to you will be “what classes do you want?”</p>
<p>But that’s the rub isn’t it? Beyond the few “top” schools I mentioned, most of you would consider it a failure to be forced to attend one of these “non-prestige” schools… I’m not saying they should admit anyone holistically. But you’re being disingenuous to say that the holistic method is somehow failing the schools (and their students and alumni and faculty) who use it. Having cake, eating cake.</p>
<p>Don’t want to partake in anything to do with holistic admissions? Don’t apply to them. It’s a free world.</p>
<p>Horrifying. If BiologyMaster64 is truly a current Princeton student, I shudder at the thought of my child studying anywhere in the vicinity of him/her. Seriously, in the wake of CT, the escalating anger and patent inability to manage it online frightens me - what is this kid like in person? </p>
<p>@T26E4: As always, I appreciate your posts, particularly the point that if these kids think it’s all so unfair, they should pound sand and apply elsewhere, i.e., to institutions that practice admissions in a way they deem is “fair.” But I don’t know how you restrained yourself so eloquently with that evil bile coming your way. Ugh - I’m done with CC for a long while. The entitlement, whining, and incivility coming from this generation of kids is demoralizing to say the least. Future leaders on this thread? For the most part, I think not.</p>
<p>Biology, no where did I imply that Asians were only high scoring test taking robots.</p>
<p>Funniest thing is, my best friend got into Harvard. He’s Asian, has high test scores, and is one of the studious, yet funniest people I know. That definitely shined in his essays.</p>
<p>Was he discriminated against? No. He had something to offer that other applicants in the test pool didn’t, and Harvard found him a good fit. He isn’t your stereotypical Asian as you inaccurately assert that I’m making all Asians to consist of.</p>
<p>I’m not going to go on any further, T26E4 already shut you down.</p>
<p>Hopefully there’s not too much of your ignorant type at Princeton, or else I might not apply :o</p>
<p>Good luck with your college career and hide that bitter attitude about race and what not! </p>
<p>It won’t get you far.</p>