<p>I was wondering how important to have a good/expensive instument to be a fine musician. My D's private music teacher recommended for my D to upgrade her cello, and the one she likes is a mordern Italian cello worth around 30K. D has a decent cello, about a half of the price of the Italian one. She is 15, and not sure she wants to persue B.M. in college, maybe double major with B.A. degree. As a not-professional music mom, it is hard to make a decision. It is a lot of money!!!!!</p>
<p>Hmmm....hard question. I do not know about cellos. There are several more knowledgeable parents here about string instruments than I am. I do know that for my daughter's double reed instruments (two of them), we did upgrade to professional (and expensive) instruments in 10th grade for one and 12th for the other because the professional instruments had features not on the student models. DD was playing pieces that required the more extensive keying on her instruments...never mind that the sound quality was significantly better.</p>
<p>BUT...even with that...both instruments total were less than $10,000 (we got GREAT deals...they are worth twice that amount).</p>
<p>Does the teacher know that your daughter is NOT considering a career in music? Perhaps this decision can be deferred until the "future" becomes more clear.</p>
<p>My son is a cellist. He graduated from Eastman and is currently a master's student at Mannes. We purchased a brand new cello fo him from an American maker when he was a freshman in high school. We paid $10,500 for it. He used that instrument for his auditions and through 3 years at Eastman. He traded up for one his senior year in college. After much looking, he settled on another new instrument from the same maker and we paid under $20,000 for that one. He played other instruments in the 30-40 K range that he did not like as well as the one he ended up purchasing. His current teacher at Mannes has no qualms with his instrument and says that it meets his needs. </p>
<p>That being said, it is possible that your daughter needs a different instrument. It may be that her current instrument lacks color or projection, regardless of what you paid for it. It is also possible that puchasing a new bow will also improve her sound on her current instrument. If she is looking for a different instrument, she may very well be able to find something she likes better than what she has for less than $30 K. My guess is that she could find something that would meet her needs in the $20K range. There are some very fine American makers. New instruments will usually cost less than older ones.</p>
<p>If your daughter is happy with her current instrument, I would wait and see. If she decides to major in cello, her current instrument will not be a deterent to auditions for most schools. The main reason for her to upgrade is when she comes to the realization that she cannot do the things she wants to do or create the sounds she wants to create with her current instrument.</p>
<p>Having a good instrument is essential to a music major/professional musician. S2s first sax was a vintage hand-me-down which he still uses but is difficult to play because of its quirks. When he switched to the larger sax on which he was going to specialize we purchased sight-unseen a new intermediate model (school instruments and anything we could find to rent were virtually unplayable). When he started preparing for conservatory-level auditions, we upgraded to a professional top-of-the-line expensive model. Before he left for college we also invested in professional level flute & clarinet for him (though both were obtained at great sale prices). I don't know about cellos. </p>
<p>Whatever you do, don't invest that kind of money until your D has played several models. She may not like the sound or feel of the $30,000 model, even if it costs that much. We made a 14-hr. drive (3-day trip) to the nearest place where S2 could try out saxes. We were not planning to buy immediately. He asked his teacher what he should play to test the instrument--scales, full range, a slow part and a fast part. We recorded him playing each of 7 instruments to compare, and so that he could compare/remember later, keeping track of serial numbers to ensure we got the right instrument. However, when he played the instrument we ended up buying that day, it was so obviously superior sound-wise to all the others (even to our untrained ears) that the decision was easy, and we didn't need the recordings. </p>
<p>An instrument will have a "feel" as well as sound, and your D will probably know better than anyone which ones "fits" her. We could afford it and considered it an investment in his future. (And since he didn't want a car, didn't care about clothes, video games, etc., it was easier.)</p>
<p>I wouldn't move too quickly to purchase such an expensive instrument. If nothing else, this is a buyer's market right now, and there are lots of instruments available in many price ranges.</p>
<p>Shennie's experience is really relevant to your considerations. I'll add ours--my son was getting serious about cello and ready for first full size in 10th grade; tried cellos price ranging from $2500 to $20,000, some from well-known out-of-town dealer; he liked the $2,500 Chinese cello best (it cost less than his 3/4-size cello). His first bow for the cello cost $1,100 and about a year ago, he purchased a bow from his teacher that cost almost as much as his cello. His teacher (who has a Testore) and he both love his cello and every time I ask him if he wants to look at other cellos he says his is great. He's now a freshman in music school. Aside from the very important bow choices, all he's done to improve the sound of his cello is move into more expensive strings and he's fussy about his rosin. And he has a really good case.</p>
<p>I am the first to admit how insecure I can get about how cheap his cello was--it's hard not to equate cost with quality, but my son keeps me grounded on this. He knows what he likes and it didn't have to cost a lot of money to be just right.</p>
<p>Son started playing piano on a Baldwin spinet, and within three years, his teacher was quite emphatic that for him to proceed at the pace at which he was learning, he was going to need a grand piano (or a superb upright, but that was a distant second choice).</p>
<p>We spent nearly a year looking at pianos, and ended up buying a rarely used Steinway B, that had been sitting as furniture in an elderly lady's living room. We had a technician look at it, to ensure that the sound board, etc., were in good condition, which they were. Everyone who plays it agrees that it has magnificent sound. A new B, at the time we bought this one, cost $60K. We spent $20K. S tried dozens of new grand pianos from China etc., that could be had for about $5K, but there was really no comparison in sound. </p>
<p>But, as Mom4's experience shows, instruments are very personal, and the most expensive is not always the best. There are so many variables that go into the purchase of an instrument, and the way an instrument feels to play and sounds, can be fairly personal.</p>
<p>Here's another cello story, pretty much reinforcing the previous two (do you sense a trend here?)</p>
<p>When my daughter was in 10th grade she needed a cello - the one she had been playing was borrowed and had to be returned. At the time she was playing (I think) Haydn C and Elgar concerti. She went to Tanglewood the summer after 10th...</p>
<p>She tried cellos costing $3000 - $25,000. She tried out cellos at two highly regarded local makers, at one local resale shop, and at Johnson Instruments in the Boston area, plus a couple of cellos for sale by individuals. She fell in love with a cello priced at $5000. A couple of the highest-end cellos she tried at Johnson Instruments could have been contenders but did not come close to being worth the $20,000 difference. Also, a new cello from one of the 2 local makers would have been in the 25-30K ballpark. Those were awesome cellos.</p>
<p>She's in 12th grade now, is done auditioning and has had pretty good reviews so far. She's still happy with her cello. I imagine she might end up needing a new cello at some point in the next 4 years, but there's no rush. </p>
<p>How involved is your child's teacher in this whole transaction? Has s/he ever had a student who's had a great cello costing less than $25K? Something seems a bit odd in this story...but of course, we're sitting at the other end of an internet connection, and do not know your child or her teacher. Good luck!</p>
<p>I agree with all the posters above. </p>
<p>BUT, your D is 15 and doesn't know if she wants to major in music. Maybe it's just me, but I think $30k is a lot of money. I guess if it's no big deal for you, go for it.</p>
<p>My S plays horn. He's replaced it 3 or 4 times, for one reason or another. I was looking at a website yesterday that lists various orchestras' (pro, school, youth...) horn sections, and noticed that one of the Curtis horn players plays on the same type horn as S's very first - and cheapest - one. Sometimes it's not the instrument, but how you play it.</p>
<p>My D plays violin, and I admit I've wondered a few times if her "student" violin was enough. But as one poster said above, a good bow, good strings, etc, can make a big difference. I think D's violin will get her through college just fine. If she were to decide to aim for conservatory for grad school, we'd have to reconsider. But I plan to wait until that point. If and when it ever comes. She says her teacher has never mentioned changing her instrument, but would like her to have a heavier bow. (She has a carbon fiber one). Some day....</p>
<p>In general, a poorly made, badly set-up or misadjusted instrument will be a frustrating experience to most players. Having said that, price may well be indicative of quality, but response, tonality and playability can often be achieved at far less cost. The trick is knowing how and where to look.</p>
<p>It's not always the maker's label, the price tag, the instructor's name, or the institutional name carved into the stone edifice that is most important when making these decisions.</p>
<p>At this stage, and with a degree of uncertainty as to a long term professional level commitment, my personal view is that 30k is too much to spend. Even if she continues to play only avocationally for for the rest of her life, the current instrument or a slight upgrade could well be more than adequate. </p>
<p>You've gotten excellent advice, and as a "stringdad" of a conservatory grad performing professionally, I'll weigh in. His instructor was amazed that son could pull the sound he did out of his mid range student Knilling, which he used into his sophomore year. We replaced it with a decent German made instrument and upgraded once thereafter with the one which he is currently using as his professional instrument. He has a received many inquiries from both peers and pros wanting to play it and inquiring to its provenance. It sounds like a $40k instrument; we paid a 10th of that. It's a modern Chinese instrument, brought in "in the white" by a famous active maker who did the final graduation, set up and adjustment. We were lucky.</p>
<p>Son has subsequently "shopped". He's played a number of instruments in the 20k to 50k range, and has not found one yet an equal to the current one. As a professional performer, a high value instrument becomes a valid employment related expense, a tax benefit, as well as an asset. Not so for a music student.</p>
<p>There are a couple of points to consider. A good local luthier is a must and even a properly set up and adjusted instrument can be finely tweaked to get better sound. The bow matters tremendously, and often a change of bows will produce wonders in the sound, response and playability of an instrument. Son has a number of sticks, of slightly varying weights and flexibility. He's found which bow works best for specific repertoire or performance type, be it solo, chamber or orchestral.</p>
<p>When and if you do look, expect to spend time, and lots of it. Having your instructor, and/or a knowledgeable trained extra set of ears in the form of a colleague or peer helps. Play the same passages when comparing, and play contrasting periods and bow speeds as well. Many suggest playing scales as well. Response is not always the same. Tone and projection are both important. Your assessment as well of those accompanying your trial should be weighed, and do listen from different vantage points. Switch positions, let a compatriot of equal talent play, and you can assess as well from an "audience" perspective, but beware the same instrument can sound differently in the hands of equally accomplished players. If possible, test final decision instruments in actual playing venues. Most reputable dealers or private sellers understand and will agree to a trial period.</p>
<p>There have been numerous articles in both Strings and the Strad concerning the purchase/upgrade of instruments, and I believe both have online access to past articles. There are numerous online articles and postings in general as well, along with "care and feeding" recommendations. Please spend a lot of time reading and researching before beginning to look.</p>
<p>Beware the practice of a teacher/instructor steering you in one direction of purchase. I'm not making accusations, but it is a fairly common occurrence for a teacher to receive a substantial finder's fee (some may call it a kick-back) from a dealer if a sale is made. It is reasonable to assume that paying a professional for their time and expertise in helping to choose between instruments will be required; it's not reasonable for a student and parent to be steered in a particular direction be the size a potential commission.</p>
<p>Some excellent general advice and articles from Fritz Reuter & Sons RIN:2</a> MYSTERIES OF THE MARKET For the record, we've never dealt with them.</p>
<p>Let me chime in with those who urge you to be cautious and move slowly and carefully. My D, a junior in HS, has (what for us is) an expensive violin and also a very cheap student viola. The violin certainly sounds better/more complex, but her musicianship shines through on the viola despite its challenges with tone production. </p>
<p>The bow does make a big difference, and could give you some time before you eventually need to upgrade, if you decide to go that route. </p>
<p>Has your D gotten other recommendations to upgrade from orchestra directors, chamber music coaches, camp counselors etc?</p>
<p>Wow, thank you for knowlegible advices. It helped me to look this from different perspectives. I have a conclusion that I do not have to rush in purchasing a new cello. Like many people said I like to shop around other places, but it is not quite possible in the area I live. There is only one reliable shop here and sales are pretty much done with trade ins. If I want to by from another individual or a shop, I have to sell D's cello by myself. </p>
<p>I compared two cello's sounds and the new one has a noticibley better tone quality and is easier to produce sounds she wants. I trust her cello teacher, she made many of her students improved in a short time and many are doing quite well. But even though it is worth investment, I think I should wait until D totally committed to make it worth to keep the instrument.</p>
<p>northwestern, selling a used instrument can be tricky as well. If you do decide to upgrade, a dealer will often take a trade in against purchase price of a new instrument. You can try and sell it privately, but this is often a function of how active a music scene/program there is in your local area. Sometimes youth symphonies, community music schools have swap/for sale boards, and many an upgrade/sale can take place through that avenue. If you are near colleges with music departments, you may be able to post for sale items on the music department bulletin boards. (You'll have to check policies first.)</p>
<p>Ask her teacher, she may know a student needing an upgrade to your d's current instrument level.</p>
<p>Lastly, there are instrument specific internet boards geared to musicians where one can post ads as well. Craigslist is a potential local alternative. I would not suggest ebay for purchase or sale of higher value instruments. </p>
<p>Selling an instrument can be a hassle. Avoid doing it yourself if at all possible, particularly in an area without a viable local market for decent instruments.</p>
<p>For what it's worth, I can't imagine that any 15 year old who isn't some sort of ridiculous prodigy needs to spend $30k on any instrument. Granted, I'm a percussionist / saxophonist who doesn't know much about the string world, but I just don't think you should be putting down that kind of money, especially if you don't even know that she's majoring in music! </p>
<p>One of the most talented musicians I know plays the bass guitar, and his current double bass cost him no more than $4000. Meanwhile, my friend who plays the alto at a ridiculous level (which I suppose isn't too uncommon, lol) uses a horn that didn't cost him more than 2.5k. Does your daughter really play at such a level, at age 15 nonetheless, that a FIFTEEN THOUSAND DOLLAR instrument isn't sufficient? I can't imagine that being the case.</p>
<p>A couple more random things I thought of:</p>
<p>A new string instrument's sound will change a bit as you break it in. It might get better, or it might lose some of what attracted you to it. It's a risk you take buying new. We bought D's violin when we lived in Germany. We bought it new, and although it is still a great sounding instrument, it has lost some of the warmth and depth that attracted us to it.</p>
<p>Also, when it's time to sell your old instrument, it will obviously be in your best interest to be selling it in peak condition. Folks won't want to pay $15k if there is a $4k instrument that sounds as good. So go ahead and spend the money on good strings, any repairs or reconditioning that it might need, a good bow, etc. And at that point, maybe you'll be happy enough with it to keep it!</p>
<p>I assume you have the instrument insured, which usually requires an appraisal or a receipt from when you bought it. If you are using the receipt, you might want to go ahead and have it appraised anyway. That would help set the selling price.</p>
<p>My D made it through 2 years of conservatory training with an instrument that was a high end "student" model. The jump to a professional instrument meant spending 3x as much for an American made instrument. The German icon would have cost another 2x more. In retrospect, she should have upgraded sometime during her first year. My W and I were lucky enough to be present during the instrument selection. Both her teacher and the vendor helped her select a specific instrument. She played 7 instruments, many times each. Four were the same model and 3 were a slightly different model. Even with my tin ear, I could detect large differences between the instruments. That was certainly not what I expected. I expected new instruments to sound pretty much the same. I can understand that a lot of variation would be expected for a string instrument, but I really expected very little difference for a bassoon. In any case I would not rush into a major upgrade. If your D is going to major in performance, then that might be necessary. When and if the upgrade is necessary, it should be done with some care and expert assistance. By the way, my D decided to keep her first instrument. It was not horrible for the money and serves as an emergency backup.</p>
<p>Contrary to popular belief, woodwinds have the same level of instrument to instrument variation as strings, and probably brass, but I have no personal experience with strings or brass since D plays clarinets and saxophones and I can attest to many hours spent listening to potential purchases for these instruments...</p>
<p>Bottom line is never, ever buy an instrument without trying multiple versions of the same instrument. Even us "musically challenged" parents will hear significant differences between the same model of instruments. AND, more importantly, something that sounds excellent in one musician's hands may sound very poor with another musician.</p>
<p>Kind of like the old Harry Potter line, "The magician doesn't choose the wand, the wand chooses the magician."</p>
<p>The good thing about the lack of "lot uniformity," which has been echoed above, is with some serious work, you can find lower end instruments that sound as good, if not better, than some of their higher priced cousins...</p>
<p>Here's a personal anecdote about how a nice instrument can help a student who is far from a music major. I played baritone sax in high school, and I can honestly say that I was a mediocre player. When I graduated from high school, my parents gave me a very nice new Selmer Mark VI bari sax. I took it with me to college, and auditioned for the quite selective concert band. The director told me that I could be in the band if I also took private lessons. I later learned that nobody else was required to take private lessons, and that the bari sax the band owned was an old beater. I'm convinced that my nice new horn got me in, and I played all four years, went on tours, etc.--although I never did get a lot better. That horn didn't cost 30 grand, though.</p>
<p>I'll add to the above post. My DD owns her own Loree oboe and English horn. She plays in her university orchestra. Having her own high quality instruments certainly has helped, especially that English horn which the school does NOT own at all. </p>
<p>However, if that is not the only reason for buying an expensive instrument. Like others have said...the quality and features needed for the type of playing the student is doing is important first and foremost.</p>
<p>Wanting to make sure my son didn't have to fight his instrument (tenor sax) while learning, we researched and played and finally bought a new horn of a popular make that wasn't the highest priced but still set us back quite a bit. When he switched to the top area teacher, she kept saying that he needed a good instrument to sound better. I kept saying that I thought we just bought him one! She kept dropping the hint, so we went on another search and purchased, after much trial and error, a Mark VI from the classic era for that horn. It was expensive, but I have to say that it is really quite astonishing how much better the sound is. He has gotten many features in his school and honors bands and has had almost universal praise for his tone (some of which has to be the Mark VI). So it's worth it, in my opinion, to give the student the best possible chance for success, if they show the talent and desire to seriously pursue music. </p>
<p>That said, his teacher commiserated on the cost, but said we were lucky not to be string players, as a decent bow would cost more than our instrument.</p>
<p>Just to add one or two more thoughts to this discussion:</p>
<p>Playing on an upright or spinet piano will definitely hold a young pianist back. It is essential that they have grand piano action to develop the technique. This is not really comparable to the situation with string players who can do all they need with an instrument of decent quality.</p>
<p>As an advisory, I have learned the hard way that you can't trade down or even, you always have to trade up. And, as others have said, the price of a string instrument does not always reflect its market value which is connected more to facets of its profile resembling antique values: provenance, (maker, year), condition, etc. If you are going to make a purchase in the $30,000 make sure the investment is solid. With significant searching, it can be possible to find an instrument with response and sound equal to another costing many times its value. If you start looking now, you have a good chance of finding something before audition season, if your daughter decides to get serious.</p>
<p>Finally, I hate to introduce sordid reality into this discussion, but many teachers do receive a percentage on sales or may hope to sell you one of their own instruments.</p>