Is it possible to read the letters of recommendation written for you?

Parents Forum
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<p>Well, it doesn’t seem to me LOR’s have as much use or impact if they aren’t completely honest, and I doubt many people would argue that A) most people are as honest if they know the person they are writing about is going to read it and B) most students would send one that doesn’t gush about them and therefore will shop around if they can.</p>

<p>Not arguing with you calmom, I have no doubt what you say is common enough, at least, although not universal. I just wonder why colleges would find them useful under those circumstances. Oh well, not the point of this thread I suppose, at least not exactly.</p>

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<p>The reasons that colleges find the LORs useful is that the best LOR’s are rich in factual detail, not empty praise. The student who would shop around looking for the LOR that describes him as “brilliant”, while eschewing one that was short on adjectives but filled with specific anecdotes about the student would probably not be doing himself any favors.</p>

<p>The book “The Gatekeepers” has an account of a student who was so desperate to be admitted that he submitted reams of his own creative writing samples and dozens of recommendation letters from prominent individuals, thinking that would help him get in. He did get accepted, but not for the reason he thought – somewhere along the line a teacher sent in a LOR describing the way that the student had interacted and supported a friend with serious disabilities, and it was the moving account of the student’s sensitivity toward his friend that led a doubting admissions committee to vote to admit the student.</p>

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<p>I believe that it was the parents of the disabled boy who wrote the recommendation. The admissions committee discounted the letter of recommendation from the famous writer because it disbelieved the depth of the relationship between the applicant and the famous writer, when there actually was a relationship. </p>

<p>It bears repeating, there is no right to see a recommendation except in the narrow case where the recommendation becomes part of the student’s file at the college to which he matriculated. ( You have a right to examine your educational file, just as you have a right to examine your medical file.) That is the right that is being waived by checking the box on the applications. It’s important to read the exact text of the waiver. It really covers very little.</p>

<p>Many teachers at our school like to show the letter they wrote to the student–they consider it a big “attaboy” and a message of “job well done” to the student. But there is no requirement that the letter be shown to the student, whether or not the box on the application is checked.</p>

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<p>First, CalMom, don’t think of this response as an attack on you in any way. </p>

<p>Second, as a former admissions officer at a top-ranked university, we (myself and the rest of the committee) DID notice when a student did not waive their right to see a letter. It was unusual and it stuck out.</p>

<p>In my experience (having read/evaluated, made recommendations on, and presented thousands of applications) typically less than 1% of students did not waive their right to see a letter. In fact, thinking about this briefly, I think I perhaps read, in sum of several years, <em>maybe</em> 40 files where students did not waive. </p>

<p>Did it mean a student was automatically inadmissible? Of course not. It did, however, make us wonder “Why?” or “Hmm.” Have I ever read an applicant who was off-the-charts amazing who did not waive their recs? Yes and she was admitted (I remember her file specifically). In general though, perhaps we were more skeptical of open recs; how can a teacher/administrator be fully open about a student’s strengths (and weaknesses!) if they know that student is going to read it? By and large these recs tended to be more blandly positive than most. </p>

<p>More than anything it usually translated as an applicant’s lack of trust - trust in the people who the applicant <em>chose</em> to write the recommendation. Our institution did not require a student to get a recommendation from a very-specific teacher (12th grade English or what have you) - just strongly suggested teachers from 11th and 12th grade academic subjects. If a student cannot trust the assessment of the very teacher he/she has selected to write the letter, why did the applicant select that teacher to write the letter in the first place? </p>

<p>Additionally and unfortunately (while trying to avoid making sweeping generalizations as much as possible ;)) most applicants who did not waive their right of access tended to come across in their ECs, rec letters, essays, and alumni interviews as pushy, grade-grubbing, and/or domineering. Not uniformly of course, but it was an interesting coincidence (wouldn’t call it a correlation :)).</p>

<p>As you mention CalMom, there is nothing that says a teacher/guidance counselor cannot give a copy of a recommendation letter to an applicant even if the applicant waived their rights to see the letter. We certainly didn’t care - it’s totally up to the teacher/administrator who writes the document. The waiver is simply legalese to allow colleges and universities to comply with a piece of legislation known as the Buckley Amendment (applying The Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act of 1974 to higher ed). </p>

<p>The biggest irony of the whole situation is that the waiver only applies if you are admitted or enrolled at the institution. Applicants who are admitted/enroll in an institution tend not to care about the content of those letters anymore, at least in my experience :wink: Students who are denied, waitlisted, what have you, are ineligible regardless of whether they waived or did not waive their rights of access. </p>

<p>CalMom, I’m glad everything worked out so well for your children. They sound like terrific young people who had very strong applications and have very bright futures and I can understand and appreciate where your perspective is coming from (as a lawyer) on this issue. </p>

<p>[[Oh - and lastly - at least from my former institution, where we didn’t care about demonstrated interest at all - if a teacher/guidance counselor mentioned another institution (the Boston University/Boston College issue mentioned earlier) we didn’t care one iota. Teachers are busy - they have many things to do besides write letters of recommendations, and grammatical mistakes/spelling errors/incorrect references/you name it just don’t matter. I read lots of references to Harvard in my region’s apps - it didn’t make one difference in our admissions recommendations. Why would we penalize a student for something like that?]]</p>

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<p>Absolutely spot on.</p>

<p>To prevent the inevitable follow up question - yes, admissions folk understand that some schools have guidance counselors who only know the kids in danger of dropping out, teachers who don’t know how to write a letter or recommendation, what have you, et cetera. Everything in context. BUT, I agree 100% with calmom that the ideal letter is just as you describe it - especially specificity. Saying a student is super great and motivated the class and did a wonderful project is vague; saying that for her project on the French Revolution she researched and dressed up as Olympe de Gouges, prepared and presented the Declaration of the Rights of Woman and the Female Citizen to the class, and led/sparked the best classroom discussion about human rights and history you’ve ever witnessed in 10 years of teaching? Now that’s precise ;)</p>

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<p>Bird rock - even for middle school CTD applications, my kids got teacher recs in sealed envelopes with the teacher’s sig across the back. Some teachers additionally gave My kids copies; others didn’t.</p>

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<p>Good. My daughter applied to competitive schools where her whole goal was to have her application “stick out”. That’s the best reason I’ve heard yet for not checking the box. </p>

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<p>I’m surprised that you wouldn’t be aware that it is common practice for teachers to give students copies of their recs. Anecdotally from CC it seems to be about half the time. I saw the rec letters that were written for me for law school back in the 70’s, both my kids saw their college rec letters, etc. Whenever I have been asked to write LOR’s for people, I’ve always given them a copy. You had no way of knowing which letters were “open”. As you said yourself, its just a matter of legalese to comply with the Buckley Amendment. </p>

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<p>No… it kind of just shows that there are some very naive admissions readers. What is the point of checking that box IF the student has already seen the letter? Given the practice my daughter’s school followed, she would have had to check that box when she had the letters in hand and was responsible for addressing the envelopes and mailing them herself. Why would she check a box to “waive” the right to see a letter that she had already seen? If she’s doing it just because it is expected or will make her look better, that would be disingenuous. </p>

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<p>It’s not a matter of trust, its a matter of putting together the best possible application. My daughter knew that Teacher A was very eager to write a rec, but after seeing Teacher A’s letter, she also knew that it was too bland and formulaic to help her win admissions to an elite college. So she went to Teacher B and Teacher C. Teacher B’s letter was amazing – Teacher C’s good, but not great. So right there my daughter was at an advantage over other applicants – because she had the ability to choose among 3 letters for each college she submitted to. </p>

<p>Again, I’m not talking about negative information in letters, I’m talking about poorly written letters – letters that are weak either because the teacher isn’t very experienced at writing such letters, or (as unfortunately is the case sometimes), the teacher’s own writing skills are poor. </p>

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<p>I’m wondering if you are revealing your own internal bias. Kids who are people-pleasers or rule-followers are likely to check the box; a refusal to waive a right would go along with being more of a strong-willed and independent-minded type of person.</p>

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<p>By the way, I’d add that no respect for a teacher or employer who would write negative information about a person without telling that person. To me that is simply back-stabbing and a mark of cowardice – if something bad is being said, the person should be on notice so they have an opportunity to respond. </p>

<p>Teachers aren’t required to write recommendations for students that they don’t feel comfortable about backing. I think a GC should have the courage to tell a student if they feel compelled to reveal something negative, such as information about a disciplinary problem. </p>

<p>Maybe that’s just my lawyer sensibilities again – all that stuff in the Constitution about confrontation and cross-examination. I wouldn’t have been able to send either of my kids to college if there wasn’t a law on the books giving me the legal right to see credit reports. (I was initially turned down for a PLUS loan due to negative and inaccurate information on a credit report, which I was able to easily clear up once I knew what it was). </p>

<p>Teachers are EXPECTED to give grades and critical feedback to their students in the course of their work, so I think its odd that one would expect them to need some sort of veil of secrecy to enable them to give an honest appraisal of a student.</p>

<p>So bottom line – I would be MORE skeptical of negative information received in confidence than the same information conveyed openly. It’s pretty easy to tell lies or exaggerate about someone behind their back. Sometimes teachers do have ulterior motives, such as personal resentments or a desire to put some students in a less favorable light so as to promote the prospects of more favored students applying to the same schools.</p>

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<p>I agree with Calmom, you absolutely need to have all the information to put together the best packet possible. However, what do you do if the teachers don’t seem to know what constitutes a “good” LOR? Do the schools give them info on this or is it a personal thing? My D’s english teacher wrote an excellent one, but the Science teacher’s was generic. So we asked her math teacher. Hers just regurgitated the “brag sheet” and I know the GC “helped” her with it. We send a lot of kids to in-state public schools, so I’m not sure there is a lot of experience with selective applications.</p>

<p>On a side note, mytwocents, according to CC rules, you are not supposed to claim to be an admissions professional without being verified. Veterans, correct me if I’m wrong!</p>

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<p>The teachers at my school ask for a resum</p>

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<p>I do have to say that after reading some of these replies, especially from you calmom, I am rethinking my whole recommendation practices as a teacher. What I see as an honest and fair appraisal of a student’s work and ability, could be made to look as a knock against that student. I guess helicopter parenting has hit a new high (low?) with some of you. Calmom, it almost sounds like you sat behind the teacher and told them what to write. The process is suppose to be a fair and accurate appraisal of the student, not a lie made up to make the parents happy! I would not write a letter of recommendation if the student did not check their right to not read it. What may be an incredible letter to me, could be taken as a moderate recommendation to a student or their parents. Where did we go so wrong?</p>

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<p>It is interesting to hear a teacher’s perspective. I think that if I was asked to write a reccomendation, I wouldn’t write one that I would not be willing for them to see. If I wouldn’t want them to see it, maybe someone with a more positive perspective should write it. Anyway the “criticisms” I had were that the letter had nothing to distinguish my student. If you couldn’t think of anything specific, wouldn’t you rather have someone else write it? BTW, I would not have asked someone to change the reccomendation, I just want to find the teachers who know what a good LOR consists of.</p>

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<p>I just re-read calmom’s comments, and I don’t see anything about telling anyone what to write. She just chose the best 2 out of 3. I wish someone had given me that advice. People assume that teachers know how to write a good LOR; they don’t always know. (not all of them are on CC!)</p>

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<p>Somewhere there is a logical inconsistency here. If all students, or let’s even just say all above average students, can LOR shop until they get one that is glowing and rich in detail, then it seems to me the LOR’s lose their meaning. Kind of like at Lake Wobegon where all the students are above average, lol. I just find it hard to believe that this is what the universities have in mind when they ask for the letters, but I am also certain they are aware that it does go on. It just makes me wonder if the LOR’s still have much of a point in the process, or if in fact the “dirty secret” is that elite schools (especially) are pretty much making up their minds off of grades and test scores, along with legacy and financial considerations, unless something else really jumps out. Rhetorical question mostly. I am not sure we will ever really know the answer.</p>

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<p>I think the whole LOR thing causes so much angst because of the lack of control.</p>

<p>Of course I ask for a resume when writing a LOR. I don’t regurgitate the contents at all, but it helps to put the activities that I do describe in context. For example, I happened to be familiar with most of the activities of one of the students, and I was able to say that I knew that the student brought the same passion and dedication to all her pursuits, not just the ones I described in my letter to give insights into her leadership and character.</p>

<p>For heaven’s sake, are there really not teachers you trust to write LORs for your kids?</p>

<p>FWIW, I always give a copy to the student. I don’t usually discuss the contents, but on one occasion I checked to make sure it was OK that I mentioned that I knew that the school was her first choice, just in case there were merit aid considerations.</p>

<p>I’m not an admissions counselor. But I would think they get piles of generic or so-so letters, and that a mediocre letter isn’t going to hurt someone, but that an excellent letter could help. That’s why I put a lot of effort into my LORs. And if I didn’t feel comfortable that I could write a great LOR for a student, I’d gently encourage him or her to ask a different teacher. Hasn’t happened. The kids at our school ask the teachers who know them best and who can and will write good letters of recommendation. Go figure. </p>

<p>Relax folks. </p>

<p>(OK that was stupid. This IS CC after all!!! :slight_smile: )</p>

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<p>Thanks, justmytwocents, for posts 24 and 25 - you’ve answered several questions I’d always wondered about, and it’s valuable to have the input of someone who actually reads LORs as part of their job!</p>

<p>I agree with calmom - I don’t have much respect for a teacher who’d agree to write a recommendation without advising the student in advance that it would include negative information. It seems inappropriate and mean-spirited for a teacher to write a letter that doesn’t present the student in a positive light, and it’s certainly unnecessary. If a teacher can’t write a positive rec, why not just say “sorry, I’m too busy” and let the kid have a chance at a decent rec from someone else? </p>

<p>I don’t really consider it LOR “shopping” for a student to try to obtain the best possible references. Isn’t this what all of us do on our own resumes? It’s a life skill to choose people who’ll portray you positively and speak to your best qualities. Colleges should make their own “fair and accurate appraisals” of the student based on the information they gather - they aren’t entitled to a warts-and-all portrait of each applicant.</p>

<p>All of my kids waived their rights to see their LORs. My youngest d’s recommenders shared their letters with her during the last week of senior year, long after the application drama was past. I was touched and impressed that these busy professionals would write such detailed, well-constructed letters. I see a disparity between private or elite public school teachers, who are accustomed to writing personalized, detailed LORs, and overwhelmed teachers in less privileged districts who may not be aware of, or have the time to write, the kind of letters that can make a difference at selective colleges.</p>

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<p>frazzled - sorry I wasn’t clear. By definition it is shopping if you ask a variety of teachers until you find the ones that will write you the best LOR’s. I just should have said that given the nature of the system it would be foolish to do anything else, probably. What I am questioning is what value the LOR is to the university under these realities. For example, if a school has 20,000 applicants for 2,000 slots and can narrow it down to, say, 10,000 based on stats alone, I wonder how much the LOR’s help if 8,000 of those people have gone to the lengths calmom describes. Then add to that if they nearly all did not wave their right to see them, there would have to be questions about their openness and honesty. Or in the alternative, if these recs are all so detailed and glowing, so they was no problem in sharing them, what exactly is the school going to use to pick between the kids? Pretty tough to decide when perfect is the average. Yes, I am exaggerating of course, but only to highlight the point.</p>

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<p>Fallenchemist - You eloquently said what I was trying to say. I didn’t mean to knock anyone (especially calmom), I just think the letters should be honest and that sometimes putting realistic things into a recommendation of how a student overcame a negative, could be a positive. I also should have added that I write more LOR than probably all teachers at my school combined. I would never write a negative letter, that is not fair. I simply tell the student that they could probably get a better LOR from a different teacher. A college shouldn’t get 10,000 perfect LOR for 10,000 students. How would they determine which are correct and which are fabrications?</p>

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<p>Mytwocents didn’t claim to be an admissions professional. She claimed to be a former admissions professional. FWIW, I too, can make that claim having been a student member of an admissions committee for architecture grad school. (I don’t pipe up with that info too much since it isn’t very useful for undergrad admissions.) Though I do think my experience has helped me realize what an impossible job it is and how rational or irrational things can be on the committee side of the dance.</p>

<p>My son’s school does not have a system where you would ever see teacher or GC recommendations unless they want you to. You give them stamped envelopes and they send them directly. (Or now with the new Common App procedures they may e-mail them.) I don’t think there would be a good response at all if a student demanded to see the recommendation. It’s not part of the culture of the school. That said a few teachers and GCs do show their letters to the students. My older son saw his GC recommendation, but didn’t see either teacher recommendation. My younger son didn’t see the GC recommendation, but saw one of the two teacher recommendations. The GCs give parents and students long forms to fill out that I presume they use when they write the recommendations. One teacher out of the four also had a long list of requirements for the students. (Answer a bunch of questions, give the teacher a copy of a paper written in his class, report his AP scores among other things.)</p>

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<p>I think the devil is in the details. I’m not going to make up activities or accomplishments. I might be more likely to overstate something that is completely subjective (“Megan is a wonderful student.” - without details, what does that even mean?)</p>

<p>Thus the expression “dam*ing with faint praise.” If I can’t do better than that, I won’t write a letter. With some kids, honestly, that’s all I’d be able to do. So if they asked me to write a letter, I’d suggest they find a teacher who knows them better. </p>

<p>And I agree that this is easier to do in a private school or elite public school, where you get to know the teachers over the course of your highschool career. </p>

<p>A note to the freshman and sophomore parents then - encourage your student to build relationships with teachers. It will help them in their coursework, and will make it much easier for all concerned when LOR time comes…</p>

<p>Another note on the helicopter parent thing… I wasn’t asked, but it must have been really difficult for the teachers of the student whose parent had made everyone’s life a misery by demanding a parent conference and contact every time the kid earned a B to write a lovely letter for the kid when the time came. I know the folks involved, and they are professionals who would never hurt a student, but I’m thinking that the level of enthusiasm wasn’t what it would have been if there hadn’t been deep sighs and eye rolls for 4 years every time the kid’s name was mentioned. And bringing cookies to the teacher workroom doesn’t make up for the wear and tear. Really.</p>