<p>I wonder if URMs actually do eventually practice in underserved communities. If that is the rationale for admitting them with lower stats, there should be some data to support it.</p>
<p>MODERATOR NOTE: In keeping with CCs policy about AA discussions, this thread will remain open as long as posts continue to address the process of Med school admissions for URMs. </p>
<p>If it veers to comments about what members think should or shouldn’t be and their personal views on AA, the thread will be closed and further questions and comments directed to the Race FAQ sticky thread on the College Admissions forum.</p>
<p>This is a theory…but this is what may be going on…</p>
<p>SOMs realize that a number URMs are coming from inadequate K-12 education. These kids have the inate intelligence, but when they began undergrad, many didn’t have the best foundation so their grades may not be as high…especially the grades from the frosh/soph weeder classes. So, the SOMs try to find the ones with talent whose GPAs suffered a bit thru no fault of their own. After all, these kids will be “retaking” those science classes again in med school, right?</p>
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<p>The “data” that is usually cited are AAMC graduation surveys in which URM’s disproportionately say they will practice in underserved areas (I’ve taken such surveys myself). Whether this actually happens 10 years down the line, I don’t know. I would love to see any follow-up data on this.</p>
<p>This is the rationale often used but I don’t think it’s the true rationale. I think the true rationale is simply to build a diverse/colorful med school class. Even research oriented med schools that seek to produce academic clinicians rather than family med doctors who work in the inner cities go to ridiculous lengths to recruit URM’s.</p>
<p>In keeping with the topic at hand, indeed URM’s receive a fairly sizable boost in med school admissions. And, yes, URM’s are not created equal. Generally, Native American = African American male > African American female > Mexical/Puerto Rican Hispanics > Other Hispanics (Cubans, South Americans, etc.) > Whites/Asians</p>
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<p>So, wouldn’t these students with inadequate K-12 education–>lower college grades eventually struggle more in med school as well? At no point will they have a chance to “catch up.” Med school is certainly not a good time to be catching up on anything.</p>
<p>The AAMC did a fairly long study looking at data from the 1980’s-1990’s. What they found was that the dropout rate from med school DUE TO ACADEMIC REASONS was under 1% by Asians and Whites and approx 4-6% by URM’s. Proponents of AA cited that the 6-year graduation rates (99% vs. 95%) were fairly equal (true). Opponents of AA cited that the drop out rate for URM’s were 4-10x as high for URM’s as for ORM’s (also true). Same data. Used to support two different conclusions.</p>
<p>I think the thing about the URMs is that the MCAT & GPA are only predictors. As I have posted before, my DD with a 29 MCAT (scary low) in her fMS1 scored better on exams than her friend with a 25% higher MCAT as well as better than many other classmates. She was even invited to tutor some people on retaking certain exams.</p>
<p>Why? Because 29 did not predict what kind of doctor she will be or even what kind of med student she would be. I would bet many 29 MCATs would be successful at HYS/UCSF/MAYO/etc. The only reason med schools have to go by the numbers is to reduce the pile of applications to a reasonable mass for review. If there are 10,000 applications and the adcoms can cut out 5000 on scores, great, less reading. It does not mean those students would not have been successful.</p>
<p>If the URM pile is 500 instead of 5000 then the adcom can read a higher percentage of the URMs applications in a holistic fashion and choose people they think will succeed who may just happen to have a lower score.</p>
<p>In the same way that a college degree or level of fluency in Quick Books might be a reason to reduce the pile of job applications, the numbers reduce the pile of med school applicants.</p>
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<p>And surprisingly, there are a few med schools out there that are still seeking people of any color, including Asians. (Or at least that is what they told a friend’s kid, when they flew him out and proceeded to shower money on him once he got there.) May not be much of a boost for an Asian male, but a boost just the same.</p>
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<p>I agree, and would go one step further and say that within each of these groups it is likely that all applicants are not created equal.</p>
<p>I’m carrying over what I’ve seen in UG admissions, which may or may not hold true for Med school. Those extra points for the MCAT or tenths for gpa are likely given to disadvantaged students in any of the URM categories, as opposed to those applicants who come from UMC, college educated families. The URM applicants that are not disadvantaged are likely to have stats that are similar to non-URM applicants, but they may see some advantage in the number of Med schools that accept them.</p>
<p>Does it seem reasonable that this carries over to Med school admissions, or is there something different in the process, goals, etc. from UG?</p>
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<p>Similar to rural LACs for UG admissions.</p>
<p>^^^^When I went to medical school twenty years ago this definitely did not hold true. Most URMs (as in all but one) came from a background similar to mine. The only difference was the color of our skin and our admission GPA and MCAT scores. It was simply a numbers game back then. Also, they all began their practices (I have not kept up with all since graduation) in the usual practice locations and environments ie not an under served inner city environment or rural area in the black belt etc. Most people have similar dreams and desires irregardless of their backgrounds or skin colors. Few feel called to practice in an under served area. I still suspect it is primarily a numbers game where, in reality, the strict numbers of URM are the primary concern. I wish your ideals were the reality.</p>
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I once read from somewhere that it is very challenging to have a private practice in a rural/under-served area because of the economic environment there. I do not know whether this is true though.</p>
<p>I agree to some extent that being test-smart (esp. on a standardized test like SAT or MCAT) does not guaranteeed that this person will be a smart/competent doctor. It takes much more than a written test to measure how smart a person is.</p>
<p>I know at D1’s school that GPAs for middle class Hispanics (particularly those who live in the state’s largest population centers or Los Alamos and therefore have access to the best schools) and white kids are essentially identical, same is true for MCAT scores (maybe 1-3 points lower). </p>
<p>And I agree with somemom, the MCAT is not a perfect predictor of med school success. I saw an article a while ago (and please don’t ask me for a citation–I have no idea where I read it) where a med school Dean said that basically he thought that anyone who could score a 27 or better on the MCAT was perfectly capable of succeeding in at just about any med school in the US, but the schools needed some way to reduce the mind-boggling numbers of applications they had to wade through every year so used GPA+MCAT to eliminate some so they had a chance to actually read the rest…</p>
<p>@mcat2–it’s not just the financial situation, though rural practioners do make a good bit less money than their counterparts in more populous areas. It’s also the professional isolation.</p>
<p>One of my co-workers is from a smaller town (pop. under 35,000), her brother is one of only 6 doctors who practice there. He cannot take a vacation because of the difficulty of arranging coverage for his practice (OB/GYN–only one for 90 miles). He’s on call 24/7/365. He has no professional colleagues he can kick back with and talk shop. And when the coroner is on vacation–he has to take coverage for him, despite it being way, way, way outside his scope.</p>
<p>The professional isolation is so bad in parts of rural South Dakota that there is currently a pilot project being conducted there using telemedicine to support the rural docs who are largely family practioners but who are expected to treat everything from measles to snakebite to pre-term labor to massive gunshot injuries to heart attacks to mental illnesses and just about everything else you can imagine. </p>
<p>It’s a tough life.</p>
<p>*Quote:
So, the SOMs try to find the ones with talent whose GPAs suffered a bit thru no fault of their own. After all, these kids will be “retaking” those science classes again in med school, right?</p>
<p>So, wouldn’t these students with inadequate K-12 education–>lower college grades eventually struggle more in med school as well? At no point will they have a chance to “catch up.” Med school is certainly not a good time to be catching up on anything.*</p>
<p>Not necessarily. They may have caught up while in undergrad, but had some lower grades that first year. They may show an “upward trend”…somewhat like what we often see with males in high school.</p>
<p>Again, my experience was from 20 years ago, but at least 30-40% of URM’s at my school required at least 5 and in two instances 6 years to complete medical school. As well, URM’s were given the opportunity to take a preparatory anatomy and biochem class the summer before first year. It is what it is. Life is not “fair” or “equal” no matter how much anyone desires it to be. I simply worked hard and did MY best and didn’t concern myself with the scholarly habits or inadequacies of others. I personally feel there are instances where URM’s and women are at a disadvantage when applying for jobs post residency. The former due to their skin color (although I suspect this is becoming less and less of a problem) and the latter due to the trend of working reduced hours to combine a family life with a medical practice.</p>