Is it really true that it doesn't matter where you go for undergrad?

College Search & Selection
41

@HappyAlumnus: I can see that 80+% of folks who have an LSAT of 173 or higher and GPA of 3.7 or higher get in to HLS, and of those who aren’t admitted, almost none are outright denied; most are waitlisted. So sure, “other things” may matter, but they don’t seem to matter that much.

And yes, getting above those thresholds “will at best increase the odds of getting in”. You neglected to mention: “by a lot”.

So yes, I wasn’t as careful about how I originally phrased what I said as I should have been. Instead of saying that getting above the median LSAT and GPA is almost certain to get you either an acceptance or on the waitlist at HLS these days, I should have said getting an LSAT of 173 and GPA of 3.7 (or LSAT of 174 and GPA or 3.6) and higher is almost certain to get you either an acceptance or on the waitlist at HLS these days.

And sure, 80+% is not a sure shot, but you also don’t need to be Einstein to achieve the levels I mentioned.

Finally, as you can see by that scatterplot, GPA just isn’t as big a differentiator as LSAT. It’s pretty clear that a high LSAT score is more highly valued than a high GPA these days.

42

PurpleTitan: of the people who have a 173/3.7+ (who you state mostly get in, but sometimes are waitlisted), what makes the difference between getting in and getting waitlisted is “soft” factors–particularly one’s undergrad school.

As shown elsewhere on this board, HLS gives a 0.2 GPA boost to Harvard College graduates, meaning that if you have a 173/3.7 from No-name U., there’s a good chance that you’ll get waitlisted, but if you’re coming from Harvard College, you’ll almost definitely get in.

There is also a lot of variation in who gets admitted or rejected with LSAT scores from 170-173, with a GPA of 3.7+. What makes the difference? Again, “soft” factors.

When I applied to HLS (and was accepted, and went there and graduated), my grades and test scores were at the HLS median (as per US News). At that time, I had about a 30% chance of getting in, looking only at numbers. I have no idea what “soft” factor persuaded them to let me in, but I had a very focused background and explained how an HLS degree would mesh with that background, so I’d guess that’s what did it, as I certainly didn’t come from Harvard College.

If HLS and other law schools cared only about numbers, then they could significantly increase their overall US News admissions numbers by ignoring “soft” factors, rejecting plenty of students who get in with LSAT scores around the schools’ median numbers and accepting only students with significantly higher LSAT scores and grades.

Why don’t they do that? Because they value placement and career success for their alumni. HLS now, for example, likes work experience post-college. It also interviews students. Someone who has a 171 LSAT and 3.8 GPA can be a much more successful person in life than someone with a 171 LSAT and 3.85 GPA, despite the lower numbers, and HLS knows that.

Where did I hear this? From Dean Minow herself (about work experience) and from my classmates and others at HLS when I was there, and from doing my own research on admissions data.

This topic has been discussed ad nauseam in the law school part of this board, and the views of lawyers who went to top-10 schools are pretty consistent.

43

Hiring smart kids to work for you is certainly a practical consideration. I’m very skeptical that an Ivy league U is only a plus in certain fields. In the region where the universities are located, employers are probably well aware of the universities and respect them. That’s not necessarily because they’re known to be prestigious schools. Over the course of many years, employers have probably come into contact with many of the alumni from those schools. So they know they produce (directly or indirectly) smart, hard-working, and successful graduates. Perhaps many of those graduates have even worked for them. Having a school with that reputation is certainly a plus for any candidate that applies from those universities.

To a bigger degree than is often emphasized on CC, it also depends on who’s doing the hiring: Is it the president of the company? Are interviews solely conducted by the HR manager? Are they done with some combination of HR / and senior people in company / department? etc. A president might think you’re a great fit for a given company. But they’ll never see you if you don’t make it past HR for an interview. (Some studies suggest HR managers only look at resumes for six seconds on average.) So it really depends on a lot of different factors.

44

This is interesting article about Harvard law school from College Solution http://www.thecollegesolution.com/where-harvard-law-students-come-from/

45

The article about HLS from College Solution, showing just the schools where HLS students come from, doesn’t show the full picture, unfortunately. If you just list the school names, then yes, it seems like HLS students come from a wide range of places and that for every Yale student, there are multiple students from elsewhere.

Look at post #6 in this thread, though:

http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/law-school/656128-which-schools-for-harvard-law.html

It shows not only the schools where HLS students come from, but also the number of students per school–the full picture. The full picture is that students from the Ivies, Stanford, Duke, etc. make up most of the HLS class. Other non-“prestige” schools do send a student here and a student there to HLS, but most non-“prestige” schools send maybe 1 per year. The HLS admissions office gives a small “boost” to GPAs coming from at least some “fancy” schools, so it’s not just that smart people attend both a good college and HLS, but the good college helps them get admitted to HLS.

Plus, when you’re at HLS, where you went to college matters. Having a prestigious college on your resume definitely helps in job placement- it’s the second most important factor in hiring, after law school grades.

So, yes, you can certainly end up fine going most anywhere for college, but if you go to a good college, it definitely helps open doors.

46

These types of threads always seem to devolve into some variant of “work hard and it doesn’t matter where you go to college,” which has a grain of truth, but doesn’t mean there’s no reason to opt for Harvard–if you’re fortunate enough to have that option.

47

Comparing CC and Harvard is silly, like comparing votech and top prep schools.

As for people saying “you wasted your time getting As and dedicating yourself to ECs,” sounds like sour grapes to me. Unless someone actually forces you to avoid social activities and friendships because they “need” you to get straight As and build up your ECs, it was your choice and you must have enjoyed it to go through with it.

The main problem is when a student has been a high achiever, particularly in science or math, and they find out an EC such as art or music is really where their interest lies. If expectations were set up, people can express dismay if someone clearly bright and able switches to a “soft” field.

Be careful of one thing though - I know there are certain Ivies who do NOT like their professional school applicants to have gone to that Ivy undergrad. My brother’s friend did very well, Dean’s List and killer MCATs, at the Ivy we went to, but could not get into the med school. He and others were told that they take “very very few” of their undergrads. He ended up in a DO program at a state school, despite his outstanding undergrad career at an Ivy.

Being happy is more important than working hard towards one concrete goal. Better to have a few irons in the fire and look at your choices. I work at a state school, and there are kids who go there even though they got into outstanding colleges, Ivies, MIT, Stanford, etc., but did not go because of FA issues. Honors programs at many colleges attract very highly qualified applicants, and many have substantial merit aid or even free tuition like where I teach.

48

@latichever, obviously, if there’s no trade-off, then choosing Harvard over, say, WashU/Vandy/Wake isn’t a very difficult decision, but if the choice is Harvard at full-pay (or even $40K a year) vs. WashU/Vandy/Wake with a full-tuition scholarship, then choosing Harvard isn’t an obvious decision (especially since getting one of those big scholarships has some prestige in and of itself) and it would come down to goals, circumstances, and other factors.

49

@purpletitan 's explanation is spot on. For very few people are all things equal. The vast majority of people have to weigh the pros and cons of multple scenarios and choose the option which best fits all their realities. For my kids, financial costs quickly place road blocks eliminating large numbers of options. Their reality. “Academic fit,” “peers,” “worked incredibly hard attaining high levels of achievement,” etc are all reduced to what numbers come in terms of FA. Merit $$ leading to low cost options move above school ranking, fit bc we cannot finance their education at expected levels.

fwiw, I do not believe their educational paths have (or will have since we still have a houseful to go) negatively impacted their career paths. They excel where they go and their strengths are recognized. They make the most of every opportunity available and that in turn leads to more opportunities.

If a student just goes and sits in class and only does class work and never branches out beyond their dorm room and class attendance…regardless of where they go to school, they will face difficulties. Motivated students succeed in diverse scenarios bc they are motivated to be successful and make sure that they do everything within their personal power to achieve those goals.

50

I agree that evryone has to make a choice that’s best for their particular circumstances. But I don’t agree that Harvard is preferable only when all other things are equal. Sometimes it’s worth a reasonable financial sacrifice.

51

@latichever, not sure who you’re disagreeing with since I don’t see anyone using the word “only”.

52

Ok leave out the “only.” I’m simply asserting that some schools may be worth the sacrifice for some people in some circumstances. And I’m resisting the meme I often see in these threads that it doesn’t matter because you can succeed in life after attending a wide range of colleges. You can succeed, and it does matter can both be true.

53

Undergrad matters A LOT, it just doesn’t matter after your IN grad school. For example, Harvard will most likely accept the Princeton undergrad vs the community college kid. Also, if you want to get into lucrative careers like Wall Street, a bachelors degree is sufficent.

54

@qpqpqp‌ Camparing the Princeton undergrad and the community college kid is useless in the fact that CC only provides AA/AS. If that CC kid transferred into Princeton, and obtained their BA/BS there, then I don’t see why they would prefer the “pure” Princeton undergrad especially since the CC student must have worked EXTREMELY hard in order to get in. I do agree though, that once you’re in grad school it really doesn’t matter where you went for undergrad aside from bragging purposes.

55

@fallenwinter But will the CC kid get into Princeton is the other problem.

56

Princeton doesn’t take any transfer so the point is moot (or is made).
Most transfers into Top 25 (or even some private top50) universities and LACs are transfers from other competitive colleges, except at Cornell CALS (agreements with NYS community colleges), even if you can always find a handful of exceptions.

57

@qpqpqp‌ It is true that many people from CC don’t ever graduate or even transfer out, but those are the people who are struggling with other priorities, or unmotivated kids who did poorly in HS. Coming from a current CC student, I have seen both the unmotivated student and the diligent hard-working student who will most likely move on to bigger and better things. Those hard-working students have a MUCH better chance of eventually ending up in an Ivy grad school than the overall student body at a CC…

Everyone on this thread seems to be putting every CC student into one group and using that to determine the likeliness of getting into an Ivy grad school. The OP says that she has worked hard all throughout HS and if she were to keep that up in college, whether it be the CC --> transfer route I don’t see why Harvard grad would not accept her.

58

I couldn’t agree more. You open up hundreds of options, in terms of colleges to attend, when you stop buying into the Ivy hype. There are so many great schools in the US that cater to all kinds of personalities and interests. By restricting yourself to only a small handful of them, you are doing yourself a huge disservice.

59

Acceptance of CC transfers varies. Stanford, UCB, and USC do take a relatively high percentage of their transfers from CCs. But others may look down on CCs.

60

I wish I still had a copy of an article of top CEOs in America…not a one went to Harvard for undergraduate work, so I guess in that sense…no it doesn’t matter…and they were in a variety of different fields and backgrounds. A large percentage were also military brats, so I found that interesting as well. Did that make them more adaptable or what?