Is it true that the more prestigious a college is, the harder the coursework?

College Search & Selection
41

<p>"PS - and the comparisons of Chicago to Oberlain or Cal to Cornell do not help this discussion much … they are all top schools. Cornell to UMass or better yet Salem State College would be more reflective of the original question. "</p>

<p>There were several high school classmates and friends who transferred out of various SUNY/CUNY campuses(i.e. Buffalo, Binghamton) to Ivy/Topflight LAC campuses such as Brown, Cornell, Columbia, and Reed. </p>

<p>All maintained the same 3.7+ GPAs to graduation and said the only difference was a slight increase in the workload…rigor remained the same. Know of at least one who is attending med school in the NYC area and another who is currently attending HBS. Keep in mind their entering high school GPA/stats were very low for the schools they graduated from. I will grant you that the vast majority of them are way smarter and hard working than most including myself…even though their high school GPAs/SAT scores would fail to convey that fact to most.</p>

42

<p>“…to believe we all learned the same stuff because we all had Thomas …”</p>

<p>Hey I had Thomas! Wonder if we learned the same stuff…</p>

43

<p>we’ve all seen example of both scenarios!
and who doesn’t use self-deprecating examples to praise the brilliance of a S/D. wow.
i guess this is all in good fun.</p>

44

<p>omg ivy league schools have grade inflation!!! </p>

<p>there4 they are easier than state schools! lol</p>

45

<p>I am not sure why anyone would find the notion of classes being more difficult at top schools than state schools or less rigorous private schools hard to believe. First, the material covered is not spoon fed to students. The information is not simply memorized but applied and there are no study guides, examples provided or clues to what may be given on the exams. I have four kids and they have many friends that attend schools all over the country. There is no comparison to MIT and Cornell to the lesser schools. There is a reason these kids are accepted to these schools and they are not for everyone.</p>

46

<p>Larger classes = less time to grade = less work.</p>

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<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/1008900-those-attending-prestigious-schools-how-difficult-time-consuming-your-courses.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/1008900-those-attending-prestigious-schools-how-difficult-time-consuming-your-courses.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>^^^</p>

48

<p>Well, the question was about the relative rigor of prestigious schools v. non prestigious, not necessarily state school v. HYP. As alluded to earlier, some public schools are also quite prestigious. </p>

<p>But yes, I think there are plenty of schools that lack public prestige, or are not widely known, that are every bit as rigorous as more prestigious schools.</p>

49

<p>I attend a top 20 school, and the workload is fierce. I was at the top of my class in high school, and my peers who went to state universities had a MUCH easier time of it in the upper level calculus courses, biology, etc. From what I could glean, the material was very similar but it was easier to get a good grade at the state school. Most math/science courses are graded on a bell curve, so the average sits at a 75. The caliber of students definitely needs to be considered here, the AVERAGE grade given out will be a C and it will be given to students who scored between 32-34 on their ACT. This can be a tough pill to swallow for all of the former vals and sals, and is part of the reason so many people get defensive about the difference in rigor. </p>

<p>To provide some context, I’m a sophomore. Never got a B in high school (and took 15 AP classes) and I’m currently working fervently to pull up my three Cs I’ve started the semester with.</p>

50

<p>Perhaps a few prestigious schools may not necessarily offer harder classes than some other less prestigious schools, but S1’s experience was different.</p>

<p>S1 took math classes from both a state uni and Harvard. He is currently a freshman at Caltech. They represent three different levels of difficulty.</p>

<p>He laughed his way to being by far the best student in the class at our state uni. The prof there spent more than half the class time answering very basic questions and many students still “don’t get it”. There was just not enough time left to cover all that should be covered. </p>

<p>He took the sequel class at Harvard and he was not well prepared. He was not taught certain assumed basics at the state uni. This time, he had to work hard to keep up. The quality of the students was an order of magnitude better. The workload, despite having to catch up on prior material (in addition to a full high school schedule and 20+ hours of research per week), was still manageable. </p>

<p>I just talked to him about his current workload at Caltech, and he told me it is very hard. My wife and I have never heard S1 said “very hard” about any classes before. I asked him which class is hard and he said they all are! He cannot finish his homework problem sets even though he has a week to work on them in a study group of 5 other brilliant students. They are not buried in quantity of work, but in the required critical thinking and deep analysis. His first Chemistry homework had only 5 problems and he can’t finish. We are not talking about advanced theoretical classes here. These are first year intro classes that he had already taken before either from AP’s or at Harvard. The speed at Caltech is also a marvel – SV & MV Calc & LA in just one year.</p>

51

<p>" Also, bear in mind the dumbest kid in you class scored a 31 on his ACT."</p>

<p>Whoa whoa whoa. Where is this now? Even at Harvard more than a quarter of the students had a 31 or lower.</p>

52

<p>From post #16:

</p>

<p>I’m taking (multivariable) Calc III at a local state university while in my high school senior year, and this is exactly how my class is! We also usually spend at least twenty minutes (and occasionally the entire period…) of our fifty minute class going over “troublesome” homework problems before turning it in, so I just tune that out and start/finish the homework being discussed (efficiency). We also avoid any rigorous epsilon-delta proofs… actually, we don’t do any sort of proofs. I definitely foresee an easy A.</p>

<p>On the other hand, this class is surely sucking the joy out of mathematics-- through the presentation of material, the lacking rigor, and the capability/ interest of the students. Sometimes, I wonder if this class may be cementing within me a flawed/inadequate understanding of mathematics that might actually take extra effort in the future to chip away before relearning the material. I’m sort of looking forward to higher level mathematics in college, but I’m honestly not sure if I’ll be ready for lin algebra or diff eq at Princeton, MIT, etc. off my state uni education.</p>

53

<p>In a simple answer, no.</p>

<p>On a side, I met with someone attending Harvard Medical School, and to basically sum up what she said: Getting in is the most difficult part. Once you get in, you’ll be okay.</p>

54

<p>S, an Ivy grad with a bachelor’s degree in economics, went to job training with other new hires from various colleges and universities. Prior to this training, he had tested out of the company’s introductory accounting class. Now at college, S had only taken ONE course in accounting through the Ivy’s graduate business school. Other people in the company training had majored in accounting and/or had earned masters degrees in the field.</p>

<p>The first day of class, the new employees had to fill out a questionnaire about their prior education in accounting. After a few days, the college professor who was conducting the training pulled S aside after class. He told him he was very impressed with how much accounting S had learned despite such a limited background, and then he proceeded to interrogate S for a half an hour about his accounting class at the Ivy, how the professor had taught it, etc. While of course other students had learned more details and facts than S had, S’s depth of understanding was comparable to theirs and in many cases much better. Since we were agonizing over the college decision for D, he called me up to tell me not to believe for one second that there’s no difference among schools, and to not feel bad about spending a little more for D to go to the better school.</p>

55

<p>I’d imagine that it is possible for many of the top 20s (minus engineering schools like MIT/Caltech which are definitely very hard) ranking below Harvard to be more difficult in certain departments. However, when I say difficult, I mean versus the caliber of the students attending. Most of them have grade inflation ( I am at Emory we have a good bit outside of the sciences and low inflation in the sciences, where C+/B- is not that hard to get but A grades and sometimes a B+, you must study hard for), but it is possible that the courses challenge the students better. When Harvard ranks number 1 and the average grad. GPA is 3.5, something is wrong considering MIT’s 3.1-3.2 and Princeton’s 3.2-3.3(which is actually a result of intentional grade deflation that occurred after they essentially admitted inflation). There is no way the students at MIT and Princeton are simply inferior. </p>

<p>Now with that said, I would imagine that even Harvard is still much more difficult than “most” (not tops like Berkeley, Ann Arbor, Virginia, dare I say our partner down the road, Georgia Tech which is known for tougher grading and a very high workload) public schools. It’s just not difficult/moderate to those who attend. You think they would be more innovative and respond to the increasing talent of the student body, but I guess not. I’ve honestly seen (and am watching) my school attempt to do this in the sciences (for example, physics, the “easy” intro. science at Emory seems to have gotten tougher as the traditionally easier/moderate profs. have change their testing style and cover topics quicker). We are experimenting with different curricula and teaching methods in many of the intro weeder courses that not only make it more challenging, but make it more interesting and engaging as well. I go to Emory, a school which most people don’t really respect (at least amongst those ranking in the top 20), and I can see an effort by the school, or at least various faculty members, to keep the students challenged. Shouldn’t Harvard, which has the most respect, do more of the same?</p>

56

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<p>Well yeah. I mean Harvard and other super top schools spend MONTHS rejecting piles and piles of brilliant students: they take the creme of the crop. So of course if you got in, you’ll be fine. But compare an admittee (word?) with the average student from a non-prestigious school and the latter wouldn’t be able to survive.</p>

<p>keyword: ‘average’</p>

57

<p>Yeah, except that it is unfortunate that “being okay” might mean that they will hardly ever have to work hard in a course. Even if they are top students in the country, most attending shouldn’t be able to say this at a top school. While there will always be students not challenged by a curriculum at any top school, there should be much more that say they are. The former should be the exception to the rule.</p>

58

<p>

Not really. Firstly, 31 ACT is exactly at the 25%. That is misleading, however, given that about 25% of Harvards incoming class are hooked admits… Those scoring 30 or under on the ACT that are unhooked (athlete, URM, legacy, developmenal) could probably be counted on your digits (under 20)</p>

59

<p>**
To preface, my comments are purely from my personal experience and I am certainly not saying that my individual experience will be the same for everyone.</p>

<p>Currently attending: A Top 20 USNWR on scholarship.
I was also cross Ivy admit.
High school: Valedictorian
**</p>

<p>Sorry for the preface, but sometimes it seems that people want to see credentials for opinions, if so, those are mine.</p>

<p>Before becoming a part of a top 20 university, I took over 60 college credit hours at various universities and colleges. And here is what I have seen.</p>

<p>Community college: You can get as much as you want out of it. </p>

<p>I took calculus 1-3 and differential equations as well as University Physics I & II (Calculus based) before becoming a part of my current university, and all of this was as community college. Currently, I am helping kids in Calc. 2 and Calc. 3 complete their homework because they don’t understand the material.</p>

<p>The difference is students vs. faculty. At a community college my average class size was ~ 10 - 15, and because I was towards the top of all my classes, I received special attention and I was able to work on harder problems than the average person in the class. When I had a problem, I was able to walk into my teacher’s office and ask someone with a PhD why I couldn’t figure out this problem.</p>

<p>I actually visited my Calculus 3 teacher so often that she would have candy ready for me every time I walked in the door.</p>

<p>Tier 1 State University: A lot less available.</p>

<p>I certainly do not want to sound critical of high caliber state universities as I did consider attending one very seriously, but the major problem is the overwhelming number of students who want to learn faced with too few professors. The result is the majority of teaching is done by TAs, and while they may know the material well, they probably only know it as well as the TAs who taught them. Professors do not have time to deal with 400 students in one class, let alone multiple, and in my experience, this lead to, even while being in the top of the class, having absolutely zero face to face time with my professors.</p>

<p>Top 20 University: Difficult with less scarce resources.</p>

<p>It should be noted that most (if not all) of the Top 20 schools are private schools, and there is a good reason for that. Private schools are smaller, and because of their size, they are better able to allocate their resources (with exceptions, obviously).</p>

<p>Still, in my experience thus far, being at a Top 20 is very similar to being in a T1 state school. Granted, I cut past almost all freshman classes, and in some cases the sophomore classes, but I still don’t have a single class size under 30. From the professors end it may not seem like a big deal to have 30 or 40 students, but the level of interaction, when compared with a class size of 10 - 15, is minimal.</p>

<p>I would worry a lot less about the difficulty of the subject material (things do seem to go at a bit of a higher pace here, but that honestly depends a lot on the professor and the major), and worry more about where you will get the attention that you want. For an undergraduate education, a small LAC might actually be the best answer. Then again, I am extremely pleased at my college decision.</p>

<p>As far as the amount learned, I see no difference between community college level classes and Top 20 classes.</p>

60

<p>morrism, I agree with you entirely. Partial Diff Equations at a state school is not the same course at Princeton, Columbia or Harvard. Sefago disingenuously claims in post 14 that his post 6 was in line with what you are saying when if you read it carefully he makes it explicit that other than a “bit” of dumbing down the courses at state schools and stronger ones are the same.</p>

<p>Let me destroy these foolish arguments: Prof X teaches a class titled “Relativity” to freshmen at state school. Prof X teaches same class at Princeton to following students: Bohr, Heisenberg, Pauli, Kapitsa, Fermi. Same course?</p>

<p>In other words, the intellect of the students will strongly determine the depth of teaching and of course the grading on the curve making the selective college course more rigorous. This is a no-brainer argument.</p>