<p>Is it true that CalTech accepts no AP credits?</p>
<p>This is true. Advancement is based on placement tests.</p>
<p>Quite true - and it's a good thing, too. AP tests can't come remotely close to the rigor of the courses at Caltech (at least, from what I've heard). If the university let students skip classes solely based on AP performance, it wouldn't be doing anyone a favor - especially not the students.</p>
<p>Yeah AP tests are junk. You can guess your way to a 5.</p>
<p>Yeah and you only need to get approximately 60% of questions right to get a 5 on Calc BC, where 40% of students who take it get 5's.</p>
<p>"Yeah AP tests are junk. You can guess your way to a 5."</p>
<p>No kidding. That's why, when I hear an admissions officer from some supposedly prestigious university who says things like:</p>
<p>"AP tests are good indicators of a student's potential at our university, because they are rigorous, high-level tests of the student's learning in college-level classes"</p>
<p>... I begin to seriously question the academic merit of the university itself. Honestly, AP test scores shouldn't be a big deal at all. Of course, if students score below 5, they show a fairly serious lack of knowledge in a subject (the curves on AP tests are ridiculous!), but 5s show little beyond basic competency. The fact that Caltech doesn't accept AP credits certainly boosts my opinion of the school's rigor.</p>
<p>Not only are Caltech frosh classes more rigorous than AP's, but the material covered in them is usually more advanced and in depth to start with. (One example is the first year of introductory math at Caltech, which covers single variable analysis, linear algebra and multivariate calculus.)</p>
<p>Randomperson, you are free and entitled to express your opinion of course, but I would like to point out several flaws in your reasoning.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>AP classes are proven to be a huge indicator of success at college. It is a fact that like 25 % or something students drop out of Calculus 1 if they first take it at college. Certainly a high-schooler achieving any sort of success in Calculus(passing the AP test specifically) should therefore be great commended. Chances are that if students can handle basic Caculus for example in high school, then they will be better prepared for its more advanced forms later in college than a college freshman. It is empirically proven with any other given AP subject as well.</p></li>
<li><p>The curves on AP tests reflect curves in college dude. You don't need a 90% to get an A in college like you did in high school, in fact, you need like a freakin' 65 % in some classes. :) Therefore, as hard as it is to believe, American college placement/final exams don't really stress perfection as much as they do basic competency, so I see no reason why high school AP tests shouldn't reflect the same lax attitude. Why would you force high-schoolers to get a 90% on the a test like Calc BC, when college students are only required to get 60% on a similar test in order to get the A??? AP tests are designed to familiarize academically motivated high-schoolers to the college scene, not scare them away from it!!! :)</p></li>
</ol>
<p>Randomperson, if you really want to take tests go to colleges that stress extreme proficiency on every test, I suggest you relocate yourself to India, Romania, or China. These are places where one extra question wrong on a college entrance exam can possibly shatter an aspiring student's dreams forever. The unneeded mental stress and fatigue from preparing for these nations' exams, which demand perfection, will send you running faster than a speeding bullet back to the US where the test curves are lenient and the atmosphere is easygoing. :p</p>
<p>Heh, well, we're all biased in that we're considering Caltech, whose course load is far more rigorous than any other college whose courses aren't much harder than APs. AP exams for us are very easy. But the majority of students struggle with them as they would for a college course. Unfortunately, American students are not often as intelligent as we think they might be.</p>
<p>ThE<em>GuRl</em>NeXt_DoOr -- now for some flaws in your reasoning ;-)</p>
<p>
[quote]
1. AP classes are proven to be a huge indicator of success at college. It is a fact that like 25 % or something students drop out of Calculus 1 if they first take it at college.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>All this shows is that people who don't take AP classes in high school tend to be unimpressive and some of them don't do that well in college. It doesn't say that AP exams capture anything that Caltech cares much about. After all, the original problem is that we have way more applicants with 5's than we can admit, and the standards for a 5 are relatively lax, so that it doesn't help to discriminate between students at the level we care about. The fact that AP tests can help you predict who would fail Calc I at State U. isn't really relevant in our pool, since I'd venture that all of our applicants are above that threshold.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The curves on AP tests reflect curves in college dude. You don't need a 90% to get an A in college like you did in high school, in fact, you need like a freakin' 65 % in some classes. Therefore, as hard as it is to believe, American college placement/final exams don't really stress perfection as much as they do basic competency, so I see no reason why high school AP tests shouldn't reflect the same lax attitude.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>It's true that at Caltech 65% is often a good grade (maybe the top grade on a test), but it's much harder to get that grade than to answer every question perfectly on the AP Physics C exam. Since the AP Physics C is a very easy exam, it makes sense that 65% is pretty much meaningless to Caltech.</p>
<p>To take your reasoning to its logical conclusion: since colleges only require 65% to get an A in some classes, shouldn't 65% of the questions right on the SAT I mean an "A" level grade? (For reference that's somewhere between 500 and 600 on each section). So you see, easy exams should have hard curves, and hard exams can have nice curves. By Caltech standards, AP exams aren't very hard, and so an easy curve makes no sense.</p>
<p>From yet another angle, it's nonsense to say 65% reflects "basic competency". That depends on the test. In some classes at Caltech, a 65% is achieved every now and then, typically by people who go on to win things like the Nobel prize. (Is that basic competency?) The tests are designed to be so hard that nobody ever tops out, and only really excellent students can answer anything at all. On other tests, like the AP Econ exam, 65% can be achieved by someone who is quite *in*competent at economics.</p>
<p>I agree that at some universities, getting a 5 on the Calculus BC is about the same as getting an A in Calc I or II. Unfortunately, Calteh isn't one of those places. Pretty much everyone in the freshman class got a 5 on the Calculus BC, but a small fraction of those people get A's in the first required math class.</p>
<p>I am starting to enjoy dropping in on this forum. Reading the debates is like going back in time. Heh.</p>
<p>Ben, you are so diplomatic and mature in your comments, are you sure you're not going to become a lawyer? (Just kidding.)</p>
<p>If anything, Ben is too understated when it comes to Caltech. Back when I went to that place in Pasadena, almost 50% of the entering class got an F (fail) in at least one subject in their first two years despite having one of the highest historical incoming averages on the old SAT. Students from India and China thought that life before Tech was easy. I understand that it's toned down a bit and moved down to near MIT standard these days. :) ;)</p>
<p>I wanted to say that the inflated HS grades, the easy curve of the AP and new SAT, and the easy grading at most colleges is one of the worst things that happens to today's students. It especially hurts students who take a really hard class for the first time (such as intermediate Micro at my current school). This does a real disservice to those good students who are most likely to want to get PhDs in technical fields. They are so unprepared to struggle and many are psychologically devastated. A bit of harsh, even unreasonable grading early on helps good students toughen up and makes them more likely to pull through later on when the going eventually gets rough -- as it does in any good graduate program. I think that this training helps explain why Caltech has the highest percentage of undergrads who go on to receive a PhD.</p>
<p>Nice post as always, not quite old :-)</p>