<p>I'd like to see a thread (if there isn't one already) from those whose kids have already graduated from their 50k/yr top schools. Where are they now? What are they doing? And was it worth it? I have a S who is not so serious about high school and will graduate w/a decent GPA and a great SAT (because he tests well). He will get into a college, for sure. He's looking at a small but well known private in our area that'll cost us 40K a year. Can I be sure it's worth it? I don't know. My daughter is a straight A hs honors frosh and wants to go for a golf scholarship. Well, that presents another dilemma, put the money into a very expensive sport or into a college fund? One thing I am encouraging is that my kids take on some summer job to contribute to their educations (not just fun money.)</p>
<p>"starbright,</p>
<p>Would you elaborate, in general terms, what you'd be looking for?
Quote:
What we'd scope out and look for an undergrad education is not at all what people do in their searches on CC. "</p>
<p>I am very interested in this too. My main familiarity is with a few graduate programs in the humanities which at present have approximately one to three spots for 200 to 300 students applying to PhD programs. I understand sending a student to an undergrad institution with an excellent reputation in the field and advising them perhaps to study with a former student of the professor with whom they ultimately hope to work in graduate school. As far as I can tell this would be more affordable than an elite if there were a public in-state option? Am I mistaken here? There must be several states where this is a real option. And of course few students applying to undergrad will be that focused.</p>
<p>Maybe the programs with which I am familiar are not the norm at all. I really hope this doesn’t come across as challenging or argumentative because this seems like an extremely useful discussion. For years I assumed undergrad institution didn’t matter in grad school applications; it clearly didn’t matter for my generation, but having been through the PhD application process with kids a few times in recent years.. I am no longer so sure.</p>
<p>Add up all the money you spend on frivolous things: expensive haircuts, manicures, designer coffee.</p>
<p>Give those things up for four years, and add that to what you're willing to spend on your child's education.</p>
<p>The small sacrifice will be worth it.</p>
<p>Personally, I don't think it is worth an austere life to forgo some of the fun in life just so a child can go to an elite university. I think a family that has invested in snowmobiles, or a dad who isn't interested in working overtime are making quality of life choices that are reasonable and sane. Giving all that up so the family <em>might</em> be able to later afford an elite education... no, not worth it. For families that choose to be that hard-scrabble, working multiple jobs, forgoing all vacations, never owning a single adult fun toy like an automobile or going in on a dream-RV... geesh... why not just chain oneself permanently to one's kids and forget the parent also deserves some relaxation and quality of life.</p>
<p>The reality is that a 50K education is not <em>that</em> special, and <em>many</em> flagship schools provide darn near close the <em>education</em> needed for an adult child to launch themselves into a meaningful/lucrative/productive career.</p>
<p>So, no - not worth going into serious debt for a 50K per year education. There are many middle class families stuck in the middle - too affluent to get aid, not affluent enough to swing 50K per year education. </p>
<p>Stop feeling guilty and start shopping for affordable colleges with your child!</p>
<p>Annika</p>
<p>"Add up all the money you spend on frivolous things: expensive haircuts, manicures, designer coffee.
Give those things up for four years, and add that to what you're willing to spend on your child's education.
The small sacrifice will be worth it."</p>
<p>Please tell me this is a troll and not a real person who believes this is really the situation for most parents. Maybe this is a student without a grasp on financial realities. All of those things listed are splurges for many of us and - Lord! - if it were only as easy as that.</p>
<p>The earlier post describing having to live on the streets in retirement is closer to reality.</p>
<p>"Good education is the best inheritance you could give to your child. It will pay for itself over and over again"--oldfort on Cornell thread</p>
<p>"Add up all the money you spend on frivolous things: expensive haircuts, manicures, designer coffee.</p>
<p>Give those things up for four years, and add that to what you're willing to spend on your child's education.</p>
<p>The small sacrifice will be worth it." --Montegut^^</p>
<p>My H and I talk about this ad nauseam. We know we could be living much better lives, materially, w/o the private college tuition payments. We have 3 kids at top ranked private schools. We make under $200.000/yr. But the schools do not give us much. Our kids have, thankfully, gotten outside scholarships (Some applied for, some just given because of merit).</p>
<p>At this point, only our S (5th yr senior--WHOLE 'nother story--1st kid)) has loans. Under $15,000, so not so bad. D1 has no loans. She has more outside scholarships. D2 will have no loans yr.1. We will have to see if we can afford to keep her there the next 3 yrs given the economy. Our mutual funds are about gone (withdrawals for tuition and stock market decline).</p>
<p>Is it worth it? We think so. Top schools open doors for jobs, graduate school and yes, bragging rights.</p>
<p>But if your child is not going to take advantage of the opportunity given them, do not pay for it.</p>
<p>It is a tough topic & one that will be discussed with increasing frequency among many families as competition for scare funds increases. The answer will depend on so many factors and decisions are so individualized--what are the other options available--how soon to retirement--what other pressing and likely financial needs are there in the family unit (even extended family--how close is the couple to retirement age--how secure are jobs of breadwinners in the family--how easy/difficult will it be to get new/additional job(s)--motivation/drive of student(s) involved--you get the drift.</p>
<p>Good luck in figuring it all out. For us, we plunged in funding our kids' choices and so far are keeping afloat.</p>
<p>Is is worth it? Allow me to reprint from my recent reply to "Darthmouth vs Air Force".</p>
<p>RE: I attended another Ivy and I can't say it actually opened any doors.
I don't know your particular circumstance but through my S's experience, he got paid internship with the same major engineering co. 2 years in a row which only recruits at specific schools and was well-paid, had taken courses from top well-known professors who were active in industry, some in the news, joined research team with actual satellete launch, made connections he otherwise wouldn't have made if he had gone to flagship state school, and upon graduation got into a grad program at another top school with full ride. His friends all but one got good jobs with well-known companies even in this difficult time. The only one who didn't get hired right away was his choosing, not sure if he wanted more school or joins the work force, and was in a general major instead of pre-professional. I am sure my S's work ethics had a lot to do with it, but the environment and resources and networking that are available were there to support him. So I begged to differ and present my view on whether Ivy school really makes a difference.</p>
<p>Incidently financial aid should not be a barrier. Apply for it even if you had no debt. Expected family contribution is only a portion of the total expenditure for your child's education. You maybe surprised what you'd receive.</p>
<p>Lilmom, I have no idea if our choice to pay full freight for pricey private U's will "pay out" for our kids. So far it has. We are glad we didn't save the college fund to pay for grad school, as many CCers hope to do. Once the kids are out of college and have worked for a while, they are much more savvy financially and are able to either go to grad school on someone else's nickel, or can figure out how to borrow, qualify for a fellowship, and put together a combination of institutional funding, private funding, etc. without tapping the bank of mom and dad.</p>
<p>The kids all worked like crazy on academics, graduated with terrific track records, had time for meaningful leadership opportunities in organizations and causes they care about (which were key in them landing the jobs they did once they graduated... a good GPA only gets you an interview) and made fantastic friends and solid professional networks for the future. Professors have been hugely helpful even several years out-- letters of recommendations, phone calls to former students who are now "important people", even helping land a post grad fellowship. Former TA's are now also "out there" in the real world and have become a fantastic resource for networking.</p>
<p>Is all of this possible at our local U? No. It's a commuter school where the faculty are mostly adjuncts. Is this possible at our Flagship U? Our neighbors tell us no- only the top 1-2 kids in a department get this kind of attention (none of our kids were top 1-2. ) Could they have gotten this at a better state U? Absolutely- but when we compared the price to go out of state to that of a private- the increment seemed "worth it" to us, just for the environment. Were we crazy? Who knows.</p>
<p>Only you can decide if you can truly afford it. Only your kid knows whether college is for partying or for taking advantage of the lunchtime seminar with Kofi Annan or Tony Blair. For sure my children knew kids whose primary motivation at college was to drink, hook up, and find a way to get invited to a rich kids vacation house for spring break. </p>
<p>Is it expensive, yes. For us-- the kids emerged different people than they went in, and are now employed in their respective fields, and/or enrolled in a top grad program which someone else is paying for. I'm sure I'd be saying the same thing if they'd gone to any one of 50-100 colleges. YMMV.</p>
<p>An important factor in our decision, however-- we are a two income family, we had children relatively young so we are done paying for college and still have years left to work and save for retirement, and thank god haven't had any health issues. If any of those factors had been different-- we might not have made the decisions we made. I have siblings who have had other issues and therefore made different decisions about college, and I see that circumstances (divorce, having children in your late '30's, having a special needs child, etc.) can radically change how you view paying for college.</p>
<p>And I would hope that my kids would have found a way to take advantage of whatever place they found themselves for four years.</p>
<p>To answer the questions asked of me about what process I would do (apologies for writing such a long post):</p>
<p>It very much depends on one's future goals. But I would be working from the department and program level, not the university level. We see first hand all the time HUGE variability within campuses in terms of student experiences. Sure there are some common threads across a given college, but the variability within each department is giant and its experience at that level which I care about for my child. So there is much oversimplicity in ideas such as this school is better than that school based on overall ranking; this school has a better culture or better fit with my child than that one; a big school is better or worse than a small school. When you have a chance to be on the inside of many, you discover there is so variability within colleges once you get into the population of 2000 or more: the degree of faculty interaction, the class size, the opportunities, the size and type and sense of one's community, the culture and fit, the students, often depends very much on the program and major not the larger institution. There is not 'one' Cornell: an experience in the english department is going to be different from the experience in the hotel management school or the experience of being a student in the labor relations program, and each will provide different opportunities. </p>
<p>So it depends on one's goals. But since you asked, if my child were interested in graduate studies (not professional but PhD research), it would go like this. For the sake of example, lets make it zoology. </p>
<p>We'd first identify the most highly regarded zoology schools in the world. Basically identify the top ten 'hotbeds' for zoology research in the world (which may or may not be correlated with the 'top X' schools on CC ). Forget about magazine rankings or famous schools. I'd ask colleagues at my university in similar or related fields about those with the best reputation, and also try to get a sense of the different sub-areas of study (a dept can be known for X in the field, but not Y). If I wasn't a professor, I'd ask my kids to email some faculty at a nearby college to get those answers (and seek info via email or in person). Most faculty are very happy to talk about career paths and such- afterall, mentoring or teaching is part of what they do for a living! People greatly underestimate the ability and usefulness of emailing professors. I'd get my kids to figure out the top schools by searches too: find the citation rates by department in the citation index, scan the journals, visit the professional association website. I'd also want to ensure that reputation isn't coming from just one very prolific faculty member but is much broader than that. </p>
<p>Once with a subset, I'd make comparisons across departments. Fctors that are important (for this particular goal mind you), include number of faculty in the area, the ratio of faculty- undergrad students in the major if possible to get. Also, what are the opportunities for doing research or interacting with faculty as an undergrad (not just what they say, but what formalized programs are available, fellowships, summer positions, what are the actual number of UGs working with faculty). I'd try to find out from current students in zoology what the <em>real</em> opportunities and facilities are like and also how well and often do they get to interact with faculty outside the classroom in general. Even at giant schools you can easily have 'small communities' within those big places, where there is comraderie, a sense of community, and faculty really know their students. On visits, we'd want to see the facilities and talk to the students in that area, and learn what the culture is like. The reason being is there is just soooo much diversity across campuses, that if you aren't talking about an area, its difficult to make a judgment about what ones experience will be like. Also I'd wnat the actual size of classes in the major in the last two years, the number of course offerings in the major (and IF those courses on the books are actually offered every year: schools are notorious for having long lists of attractive courses in brochures that do not reflect what is really available every year). </p>
<p>Now I'd go to the science program level and university level for comparisons. What is the larger science pgoram like, and is that strong zoology area an outlier or not? What is the school as a whole like (I'd focus on rankings besides those in the mass media). Here it's harder to articulate the judgement call because it becomes a balancing act between good all around university, strong science program , strong department, and of course where my kid can get in! But I think where I differ from others perhaps is a higher priority on the dept/major than the school. I'd not send my kid to a top zoology dept in a very poorly funded general science program for example, but I'd have no qualms at all sending my kid to mid-range State U, over Ivy U if the former provided more research opportunities or State U was inexpensive for us and held in good regard in the sciences. </p>
<p>Of course at this point you might be saying, what if my kid changes their mind? I know on CC people are more fans of choosing the best school over the best school for a major for that reason. That is a valid point and hence the 'judgment call' sentences above. But if one decides to change the goal and not be a resaercher I think this route is not wasted at all! But I'm a strong believer that some of the most interesting and valuable undergrad education involves working closely with faculty and doing research if you can (seeing hands on, where the knowledge is generated that is taught in classroom). Doesn't have to be scientific research as in a lab, it could be applied to ANY discipline. And doesn't matter what your later career becomes. Even if your kid decides not zoology but law for example, they'll still will have had an enriched education (and likely great guidance from some faculty members, and also recommendation letters from faculty that will be useful for jobs or a professional program). </p>
<p>Sorry this was so long. And I'm sure I left out a ton of other things as it is.</p>
<p>starbright.. but if parents don't qualify for need based aid and unless one of those top ten zoology programs happens to be at an in-state public or your child gets a merit scholarship to one of those schools, aren't you still paying a premium for the undergrad education? This is what I'm not following.</p>
<p>Sorry I'm not being very clear. Tough with examples. We are folks that wouldn't qualify for aid, and not sure how our kids would merit, so I hear you.</p>
<p>I didn't mean literally top 10 other than as an example-- you can make it top X, but I believe there will be a range of schools in terms of prices that will likely work for a lot of areas of study. Rather than work one's way down a CC/UNWR list (which gives general prestige, but also seems invariably correlated to high tuition and high selectivity, so the odds of merit are much lower), work from the list of schools for ones major which is likely to include states or less selective schools overall (but strong for one's major). </p>
<p>Just to give another goofy example. If my child wanted to go in my field (will NEVER happen) but if they did, they couldn't go wrong with about 25 schools. They would include the usual suspects like Harvard, Penn, NU, Stanford.... but also Arizona State! Really! Amazing group of folks working there right now, great research opps. and in our field it would be great to bring in someone who worked with any of the faculty there. OOS tuition is 17k and better odds of merit $ </p>
<p>I might end up paying a premium, time will tell. But my main point was my somewhat different criteria I would use to decide 'if its worth it' or not (what I consider a great education), and it may cost less.</p>
<p>
[quote]
To answer the questions asked of me about what process I would do
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Thanks starbright. By happenstance my son did some of what you suggested last year. Against the advise of his hs GC he ignored published mag rankings, looked beyond the university level and concentrated on the department level and programs. Unguided, he did manage to dig into the programs at several schools. I encouraged him as I felt at the time he was on the right track because of his specific program intentions and the department/program seemed much more important than the school as a whole. It all worked out for him. He's happy, so I'm thrilled.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, the GCs do have a bias--getting kids into & enrolled in more "prestigous" (& often expensive) schools makes the GC & school "look" "good," in a keeping-up-with- the-Jonses way. They don't really think about whether/how the families will afford it but figure it will "work out." It's tough when it was a huge sacrifice which at the time or in hindsight neither the student nor family appreciate.</p>
<p>You do raise many good points.</p>
<p>Ya, it wasn't until this year that a parent of my son's classmate pointed out how the 'brag sheet' of colleges the hs is so proud of each year is of acceptances, not enrollments.</p>
<p>At our kids' HS, it was enrollments. Lately, there have been more & more kids opting to stay at flagship U or at least West Coast as opposed to further & more attending schools known for good merit $.</p>
<p>Cornell is a great school. No doubt about it. But unless your child wants to major in something that only Cornell offers, my opinion is that 50k/year is a ridiculous amount of money to spend for undergraduate education at ANY school, HYP AND Cornell, included. An excellent undergraduate education can be had for far less money at many schools, both public and private. My daughter passed over Cornell for a lesser known Midwest public. That was two years ago. She couldn't be happier now. She's in the university honors program, an early admission candidate to the university's doctoral program in veterinary medicine, a research assistant to a professor in the department of diagnostic medicine/pathobiology, she'll graduate with no debt, and our net cost for her entire undergraduate education (all four years combined) will be well under 50k.</p>
<p>Is it worth $50k? Does undergrad matter if the eventual goal is grad or professional school?</p>
<p>Knowing our kids would be going on to grad school we planned on paying the undergrad bill because we understood their grad programs—if they were able to get in—would be fully funded. I have a suspicion that students from elite well known institutions will have a better shot at getting into some of these programs, though obviously that will not be the only route. If they had been interested in law or medicine we probably would have insisted on a less expensive undergrad education or told them they would have to be responsible for it themselves – not because we wouldn’t like to pay but because that was absolutely beyond our means. Also we would have assumed they would have high enough incomes to pay back their loans. Today it is not so clear that would be a correct assumption. Obviously if your student gets one of the impressive merit scholarships for schools routinely sending their grads to top programs this is a less expensive way to go. I would also argue it might be more desirable than any other option for the level of attention and abundance of resources offered them. Is it worth $50 k undergrad for those considering professional school? If you only have x amount to spend? I would have thought not. However, in recent years my kids’ friends have gone the fully funded MD/PhD route, after graduating from the $50 k school and wonder of wonders (to me at least) some got law school funding. Now these are all high ability and unusually motivated students.</p>
<p>You know, I wonder if the severe downturn in the economy will finally make a dent in how many folks think about this situation. It seems that so many have a belief that making great sacrifices (including heavy debt and raiding retirement funds) is worth it as long as they fulfill their child's dream...and that dream is often an expensive private. It's as if there are no quality alternatives. I just don't buy it.
And I have to say it's pretty insulting to read about giving up starbuck's coffee. Are you kidding me? THAT will help me pay for 200k each for multiple kids??
Honestly, we live frugally and are concerned about paying for retirement. No fat pensions here. We're thrilled that our son worked hard, got great scholarhips and will graduate in the plus column. And he is too. Thankfully, we agreed that considering all options made sense and he didn't get fixated on a brand name. Our financial situation is much less secure than when he started college, so we are breathing a sigh of relief. </p>
<p>But I guess, looking back, we all fight pretty hard to justify our choices. Those who spend the 200K will argue that it's worth it of course. I just hope parents going through this right now (like the OP) realize they DO have choices, and that there's nothing wrong with looking at the value side of the equation if funds are limited (and they are for most of us!).</p>