is it worth going into IE?

College Majors Engineering Majors
21

<p>
[quote]
what about the non-mfg stuff? i'm quite concerned about job security and growth with ME because of outsourcing. i've also met quite a few REALLY smart ME students from China. and you know how much they're willing to work for. so i don't see the point of paying extra to hire US engineers while the stuff is already made over there. seems like IE is a more practical choice even though all the other engineers tend to look down on IEs.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Like I said above, there is no point in outsourcing the manufacturing of a particular good in order to save costs if you then lose all those savings in transporting those finished goods to the end customer. That's why there will always be local manufacturing for some products, as some finished goods are extremely expensive to transport. Fully assembled desktop PC's, for example, are quite expensive to transport. You can profitably manufacture desktop PC components overseas, but probably not the assembled desktops themselves. Think about it - much of a fully-assembled desktop is basically air (it is the empty space inside the case). To assemble them overseas and then ship them here would basically mean shipping a lot of wasted air. (Note, I am not talking about laptops, just desktops. Laptops, because of their small size and hence high $/size ratio, are profitably manufactured overseas.) </p>

<p>You also have products that are characterized by the need for high responsiveness and rapidly falling prices. Desktop PC's again fall into this category. So does trendy fashion. With these sorts of goods, you can't really wait for months for something to arrive by boat from China. For example, I may want a particular PC with a particular video card, a particular amount of RAM, a particular microprocessor, etc., and I want that PC right now, not months later. In theory, such a system could be assembled overseas, but it would then need to be air-freighted over to me at tremendous cost. It's far more economical to simply run a local assembly plant. That's why the major PC vendors - Dell, HP, etc. - have numerous local assembly plants (or contract for local assembly capacity) and are not looking to outsource any of them. If anything, those vendors are looking to expand their local assembly capacity. For example, Dell recently opened a new desktop-PC assembly plant in Winston-Salem. </p>

<p>Similarly, the high fashion garment trade has to be highly responsive, as those people (i.e. trendy girls) who care about fashion don't want to buy anything out of style. Furthermore, what happens to be the hot style in a particular season is difficult to predict. Hence, those trendy garment manufacturers generally need local manufacturing capacity so that they can quickly shift to producing more of what happens to turn out to be the hot style and, because they're local, can quickly stock local stores with more of those items. Again, if you manufacture in China, then you have to wait for months for your items to be delivered by boat, by which time the fashion trend may be over and you have to sell all those items at a markdown. Either that, or you have to air-freight those items at considerable cost which eliminates the entire reason why you were manufacturing overseas in the first place. </p>

<p>Then there are those hugely capital-intensive manufacturing centers for which the cost of labor is basically infinitesimal compared to the rest of the costs. Microchip plants immediately come to mind. So do oil refineries. For example, a new microchip fab plant costs something on the order of $3 billion to build, and many hundreds of millions of dollars to maintain (i.e. cost of utilities, replacing obsolete fab equipment, etc.). The labor costs represent litte more than rounding errors. What matters far more are characteristics like access to highly reliable utility supplies (i.e. reliable electricity and water supplies), reliable laws (especially against intellectual property theft), reliable supply transportation chains (i.e. fab plants need highly reliable deliveries of base chemicals) and low tax regimes. Intel, for example, just opened a brand new fab in Arizona and is scheduled to complete another in New Mexico next year, for all of those reasons above. Oil refineries desire the same sort of reliability, and they also desire to be close to customers so that they can reconfigure production according to local needs (i.e. a local refinery can reconfigure production to produce more heating oil in response to an unexpected local cold snap.)</p>

<p>Then of course there are those US companies that are greatly benefitting from globalization as it allows them to sell more overseas. China has been importing great quantities of high-end capital goods, which means that companies like Caterpillar have been going gangbusters lately, for the simple reason that China does not have any companies that can produce high-end, high-quality construction and agricultural technology that Caterpillar can. Now, I'm sure that one day some Chinese firm will learn how to produce that technology, but that will mean that there will be some other technology that the US can produce that China can't (or won't). Similarly, Boeing is enjoying great business in selling to foreign airlines (as the US domestic airlines are still financially in the toilet). Maybe China one day will learn how to produce a passenger jumbo-jet, but that won't happen anytime soon. (Keep in mind that there are only 2 passenger jumbo-jet manufacturers in the world, Boeing and Airbus, and nobody is seriously threatening to break into that duopoly). </p>

<p>Hence, I would hardly say that manufacturing is "dead" because of global competition. It's more that manufacturing is changing. If you want to work in manufacturing in the US, you should be moving to where the US is strong. I would agree that fields like low-end furniture manufacturing, low-end garment manufacturing (i.e. underwear, socks, regular jeans), toy manufacturing, electronic components, packaging, and items like that are going to suffer from outsourcing. So you probably don't want to go there. On the other hand, there are plenty of other manufacturing fields that are quite strong.</p>

22

<p>" what about the non-mfg stuff ?"</p>

<p>probably not</p>

23

<p>I don't think it's much of a market standpoint that causes the other engineers to dislike IEs or think that their work is minimum in technicality, it's solely a pride and arrogance issue. While you are certainly true that they aren't as marketable as EEs/CEs, it's just that EEs and CEs need to realize they're on the same side. I'm an EE myself and I find that this happens everyday. Sure, I harbor thoughts such as "eh, IE", which I guess you could say is looking down upon them.</p>

24

<p>
[quote]
I don't think it's much of a market standpoint that causes the other engineers to dislike IEs or think that their work is minimum in technicality, it's solely a pride and arrogance issue. While you are certainly true that they aren't as marketable as EEs/CEs, it's just that EEs and CEs need to realize they're on the same side. I'm an EE myself and I find that this happens everyday. Sure, I harbor thoughts such as "eh, IE", which I guess you could say is looking down upon them.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Personally, I would say that a lot of it boils down to jealousy. IE coursework tends to be easier than EE coursework, both in terms of content and in terms of grading. Yet IE's get paid comparably. {They get paid a little less at the BS or MS level, but actually get paid *more * at the PhD level.} </p>

<p><a href="http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos027.htm#earnings%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos027.htm#earnings&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Furthermore, I would argue that IE's have a cleaner shot at management or higher end strategy roles (i.e. consulting) than EE's do. That's because the tasks that IE's perform are highly transferable to management. </p>

<p>In other words, IE's probably have a higher "reward-to-effort" ratio than EE's do. Work less while making comparable money and having arguably a better shot at promotion. It's a pretty sweet deal (relatively speaking). I think that's why a lot of other engineers resent them. But the real goal should not be to pour your energy into resenting somebody else's good fortune, but to instead reform the other engineering branches to improve their reward-to-effort ratios. For example, I am convinced that many EE programs are just unnecessarily difficult, i.e. that they force students to take extremely difficult courses regarding subjects they frankly don't need to know. {As a case in point, I strongly question why Berkeley EE's are forced to take the notorious Software Data Structures weeder course, when the truth is, most practicing EE's never need to know that stuff beyond perhaps the first few chapters of the book.} </p>

<p>{Note, I don't have an IE degree, so I don't have a dog in this hunt. I have no personal agenda to boost IE. I'm just telling you what I see.}</p>

25

<p>Sakky, where does FE figure in all this? Also, isn't it better to do applied math and then use it to learn the IE/OR stuff on the job, for it seems to me that the stochastic processes part of OR is but an extension of applied math. Am I wrong?</p>

26

<p>i have been in the process of switching to IE from ME.
never even thought about EE.</p>

<p>I love what i hear from sakky in this thread!</p>

27

<p>
[quote]
But the real goal should not be to pour your energy into resenting somebody else's good fortune, but to instead reform the other engineering branches to improve their reward-to-effort ratios. For example, I am convinced that many EE programs are just unnecessarily difficult, i.e. that they force students to take extremely difficult courses regarding subjects they frankly don't need to know. {As a case in point, I strongly question why Berkeley EE's are forced to take the notorious Software Data Structures weeder course, when the truth is, most practicing EE's never need to know that stuff beyond perhaps the first few chapters of the book.}

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I forgot to add the other possible tactic, which is that the EE community should be devising a way for EE's to be paid more (relative to the IE's and especially to, say, the consultants and investment bankers). Right now, the reward-to-effort ratio for EE is not that great, compared to the reward-to-effort ratio of other careers. You have 2 levers you can manipulate; you can either reduce the necessary effort involved, or you can improve the reward (or ideally both). </p>

<p>But, as it stands, if things don't change, then I would have to say that IE is arguably a better deal than EE is. You don't have to study as hard, you don't have to survive weeders that are as hard as the EE's do, yet you end up getting paid a comparable salary anyway. That's a pretty sweet deal.</p>

28

<p>calkid, how do you like IE compared to ME? i'm in the same boat actually. i've declared ME last semester without much thought. now every time i look at those meaningless physics problems, it makes me regret more not going into IE. i did better than in math than in physics, is that a good indication that i should switch to IE? the least favorite thing about IE is programming. do you have to do a lot of that? </p>

<p>my impression of IE is that you get paid the same wage as ME/EE but the job security/availability isn't as good. am i wrong? the trend i'm seeing is that as mfg moves overseas, they need more IEs to handle the supply chain/operations work. i also like the fact that IEs tend to work in the financial field, which means lots of $$$.</p>

29

<p>How deep into the business sector (finance) can an IE go?</p>

30

<p>At my school (Umich), the IOE dept offers 400-level classes in finance. You can also take business classes as your non-IOE tech electives. I think of an IE degree as a BA degree with more math and problem solving skills. Correct me if I'm wrong.</p>

31

<p>I think it varies from school to school...</p>

32

<p>I have a question about IE programs in US schools.</p>

<p>There are only about 100 something schools that offer ABET accredited "Industrial Engineering" B.S. programs.
Some of them are just called IE, others have names like systems and OR in it--ISyE or IEOR.</p>

<p>The # of schools offereing IE is pretty low compared to other eng. fields like EE, ME etc.
(even in my state, PA, only 3 colleges offer IE)</p>

<p>Is there any particular reason for this?</p>

33

<p>^ IE is a relatively new engin major compared to EE or ME. i can't think of any other reasons.</p>

34

<p>Industrial Engineering has many close 'cousins' as majors, and lots of schools don't even use the term IE. I'm working on my PhD in OR at a department of "Systems Engineering and OR". In fact, this discussion has nearly ignored the systems engineering major. </p>

<p>(I've posted on this before, so the old timers can just skip this.)</p>

<p>Systems engineering and plain OR are going like gangbusters here in the Washington suburbs. The Washington Post has over 700 job openings for systems engineers. There are always vacancy notices that accept "Operations Research" degrees, and many prefer them. The federal OR job series, the 1515 series, has tons of jobs available. I run a division of 40 OR and systems analysts, and I can't come close to filling my needs. It's a case of academia not keeping up with demand. </p>

<p>Jobs in my industry (defense) are not outsourced. Ever.</p>

<p>I'm chiming in late because I'm swamped at work. Don't believe the campus rumors. OR is a thriving and highly demanded major.</p>

35

<p>
[quote]
There are only about 100 something schools that offer ABET accredited "Industrial Engineering" B.S. programs.
Some of them are just called IE, others have names like systems and OR in it--ISyE or IEOR.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>ABET accreditation has little relevance to IE. That's because few, if any, states actually formally accredit IE's anyway. Some states will accredit generic Professional Engineers (and an IE could get that accreditation), but I am not aware of a single state that actually formally accredits a Professional Industrial Engineer specifically. </p>

<p>Furthermore, most IE's don't work on any projects that require accreditation anyway. That is the same reason that bioengineers or materials scientists/engineers don't care about accreditation, and EE's, ME's, and ChemE's rarely care. The only discipline where accreditation seems to actually be important is Civil Engineering, because of the importance that the PE status confers in terms of signing off CivE projects. Most other engineers in most other disciplines will never need to become PE's. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Industrial Engineering has many close 'cousins' as majors, and lots of schools don't even use the term IE

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This is definitely true, and is another reason why relatively few schools offer accredited IE programs. </p>

<p>As a case in point, MIT doesn't offer IE as a separate discipline. Instead, IE coursework is offered in 2 departments - as part of the transportation/infrastructure coursework within the Civil Engineering department, within the Engineering Systems Division (ESD), and (especially) as part of the operations management subfield within the Sloan School of Management. I think it's pretty safe to say that you can get an excellent education in IE at MIT. After all, the MIT Sloan School has been ranked the #1 business school for operations management for many years now, and guys like Steve Graves, Charlie Fine, and John Sterman are undoubtedly among the most respected IE scholars in the world. Similarly, Stanford does not have a formal IE program. Rather, Stanford has what they call a "Management Science and Engineering" program. But it's basically the same thing. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Jobs in my industry (defense) are not outsourced. Ever.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, I wouldn't go so far as to say that defense jobs are never outsourced, not ever. They are. International defense joint projects are basically a type of outsourcing. For example, the British defense contractor BAE has been one of the 3 primary partners (with Lockheed and Northrup) in the design of the components of the F-35 JSF. In fact, the F-35 is an international joint venture among the US, the UK, Italy, Australia, Canada, Turkey, Norway, and Denmark, with each nation holding different design, contracting and technoogy development responsibilities. . That's basically international outsourcing right there. {If you disagree, then what exactly would you call it?}. In the future, I would expect to see more of these international joint ventures in defense projects.</p>

<p>In fact, speaking of international defense joint ventures, I would posit that they are excellent opportunities for IE's, as they bring the challenge of managing a multi-national supply chain. But it also means that American IE's will probably not hold all those jobs. Many of those jobs may be held by Brits, or Canadians, or Australians, or whoever is participating.</p>

36

<p>redbeard, thanks for the encouragement. the campus rumor has always kept me from declaring IE although i've always thought IE would be interesting. i did some research and found many (mfg) companies prefer IE's, not to mention the non-mfg jobs that IE's could do. to me it seems IE will open up both mfg and business job opportunities. how likely are IE's end up in the finance sector (i.e. i-banking)?</p>

<p>UMich offers IOE (industrial and operations engin), does that mean a combination of IE and OR? it also has a surprisingly high ranking in IE too (#2, above Stanford and Columbia).</p>

37

<p>What if one were to do both EE/ME and IE?</p>

38

<p>^ one would spend 6 years in undergrad school.</p>

39

<p>But what if one is entering college with nearly all engineering pre-reqs complete and is willing to take summer classes? Would double majoring in ME/EE and IE "pay off"?</p>

40

<p>of course, in some sense, between someone who did just ME or IE someone who did both would have an advantage. Or a disadvantage in that it plants a doubt as to what you are up to. It is not an arms race out there, accumulating degrees and double and joint majors and MBAs and MFEs etc. Decide what is really your passion and then everything will fall into place.</p>