Is it worth it....now????

Parents Forum
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<p>I find it so interesting that there has been this huge surge in applications at the costly, competitive schools this year, even in the face of the economy. I wonder if, like us, people who will not qualify for need-based aid -- but thought they had enough saved up for the school of their kid’s choice -- simply went ahead with the plans they had made prior to the meltdown, while maybe adding a few economic safeties/possible merit aid schools to the mix.</p>

<p>And now they’re waiting to see if the market will rebound, if they will lose their jobs-- and if things get really bad, could they maybe get enough financial aid to let their kid attend the “dream school?” They may also be subconsciously hoping that if their kid does make it into Goldplated U, the tuition fairy will appear, sprinkle some fairy dust, and poof! There will be a way to pay for it. At least this is how I assess the state of my own current mixed-up thinking.</p>

<p>I work in advertising, and I keep thinking how a lot of this admissions frenzy does come down to branding. Except in the few cases where a student really knows what he or she wants, say, a fantastic archaeology program, and only a certain school has it, most of us are making up our wish lists-- students and parents alike-- based on brand attributes. Are we Volvo people or Mercedes people? Crunchy granola or foie gras? We are responding to the image a college has created, since there really is a limited amount we can know from view books, websites, and brief campus visits. Is this school a place for brainiacs or party animals? Activists or beauty queens? Who are we – and who do we want to be?</p>

<p>I know this seems so obvious as to be scarcely worth mentioning, but I keep thinking about it in order to try and wean myself away from this image-obsession. Is it really worth $50,000 in this economic climate to buy into an image? Won’t a huge number of us decide to regretfully forgo the longed-for Mercedes, and go with a nice economical Hyundai when all is said and done? After all, it will get you where you want to go, though it won’t impress the neighbors and doesn’t come with as many perks.</p>

<p>This must be why we are getting so many letters from the schools D has already gotten accepted to and even those she has not gotten accepted to – imploring us to consider “value” when we make this decision, not just cost. I sometimes feel like I am being courted to buy an overpriced condo in Boca.</p>

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<p>It is very personal question in ANY economic situation with tons of threads devoted to in on CC. For some people it is worthwhile, for others it is not. There are a lot of variables that go into this decision.</p>

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<p>A lot of people are also looking at the long-term payout, and probably thinking that, in a lousy economic climate, with lots of grads looking for work, an employer might hire more quickly a grad with a Mercedes education for a Hyundai price. In this climate, the thinking goes, it will be easier for the Harvard grad to get a job than for the Podunk U grad. (Gee, I hope there really isn't a Podunk U ~ if there is, no offense was intended!)</p>

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<p>Maybe when your parents don't have jobs is when you can apply to a lot of schools hoping for better financial aid.</p>

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<p>But that depends a great deal on what industry. A Harvard grad with $100,000 in loans who gets a job in publishing over the Podunk grad is in big trouble anyway, unless he or she has a trust fund. In some careers it is essential to have an impressive name on your resume. In others, not so much. It never hurts, but it has a limited ability to help. I have noticed that in my field many of the top people went to extremely unimpressive colleges. I've taken to looking that up as soon as a new hire happens in the executive suite. That said, I agree that it's one consideration in my list of things to consider.</p>

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<p>I was wondering the same thing. Unemployment rate will continue to rise as companies scale back therefore sending more people into foreclosure. It's a slippery slope.</p>

<p>I feel badly for the kids who already have 1 yr in college and may have to leave and go to a less expensive school. It's a tough enough transition the first time and at this age they just don't get the finances and don't understand why you didn't "plan" better.</p>

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<p>I agree Lisares. While my husband's company is slightly recession proof, there is still that chance that something big would happen and his business would dry up making the possibility of paying tuition a real stretch. Unfortunately, Son did not apply to any state u's or flagships. He has worked incredibly hard and the carrot has always been, "your job is to work hard and get in to college, we'll take care of the rest." And I assume that if the worst came to worse, we will probably have to borrow - maybe agains the house or maybe just outright borrow, but at this point it doesn't look that way. Also, we are fairly young parents for this day and age (45), so the possibility of making things back are pretty strong.</p>

<p>However... this whole branding thing is what I definitely am thinking a great deal about. Especially because you may have applied to mercedes dealers who will really be selling volvo's in the fall. Or maybe it's volvo's who are now chevettes. Frankly, lexus is coming out with a really nice dedicated hybrid that would seem to be the best of both worlds in that despite price, you're still doing the right thing for the longer term!</p>

<p>But then I think about shopping in general and have made a couple of conclusions. I can always justify shopping for quality over the long term. My current car has come with 24hr roadside assistance, a great warranty and free loaners for any work that's going to take more than an hour. Plus, the loaners are typically the latest cars (sure it's marketing). And when it comes to my clothes, I tend to buy timeless over trendy because it's about longevity of use for me. I am looking at colleges the same way. There is a reason beyond branding that has colleges holding their strong reputations. And maybe it is just perception over quality, but it is the perception that matters. And as I recall, this is the fundamental goal of any advertising: to alter perceptions. However, if the perception didn't hold into reality, the high opinion of the product would fall. So as long as the HYP's of the country preserve their commitment to educating some of the brightest and most committed students, the perception will remain and hopefully the Human Capital Theory of Economics will come to bear positively. If it's not A job vs a higher priced one, so be it. You're still ahead of the curve. Certainly it is my assumption that there is real and tangible differences and I am hoping it is for more than name recognition that will allow my kid to walk out of Amherst, Middlebury, Colgate, etc etc (who knows where he might get in come April) fully qualified to enter into the next stage of his life (whether that's more school or employment). </p>

<p>Truthfully.. at this point we are still under the spell of unprecedented applicants (even though numbers are slightly down), we are unsure where his choices will be. And I concluded that some of that would dictate the direction and limit his choices. However, now I am thinking that schools might put out more offers of admission because yields might be off of what is usual and customary due to the economy. And if that's the case, it will be a process of comparing if we're still talking volvo or we're now talking the bargain lot due to their cuts and how that effects the experience as a whole.</p>

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<p>hey, one thing I know is that it's better to be young (and relatively inexpensive) vs old (read 50+) in a recession or depression. Grads will still get jobs but it will be tougher and they will need to adjust expectations.
What is of concern are those who get huge loans and then expect to make it back because they went to a "brand" school. Well, maybe they'll get more attention that Podunk U grads but the money won't be big.
As a manager, I might want to go with a less prestigious grad at 30 or 40K - vs hiring a Harvard grad at that rate. I might worry that they would be unhappy or would jump ship when things started looking up.
It's a really complicated situation. One thing I think most would agree on though...a lot of debt (college or otherwise) is a bad thing right now. In my mind, it was a problem even when times were good ...but it really stands out now as a bad idea. Who wants to graduate with the equivalent of a mortgage payment?</p>

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<p>I think your idea of branding is correct. Most of it is image, but there difference, once being the student body.</p>

<p>My current car is a Saab, but the base model. Don't know how to access it for the analogy. It's my third Saab so I really do like the brand for a lot of reasons that are not just image, but that probably did come into play. However, it had a really good lease option, and then I bought it, and it has worked out to a reasonable choice for me.</p>

<p>It also is ten years old and has 125,000 miles on it, but drives the same way it did the day I bought it. </p>

<p>I had a totally generic education right through my PhD. I did get into several Ivies for grad school but didn't go for the same original reason -- money. I have an excellent job but not a shiny, elite job that a better brand would have given me. I have often regretted this, so I was determined that my kids could go to brand name schools if it were important to them.</p>

<p>It was.</p>

<p>One is graduating this year and one is a soph at shiny, brand name schools. It has been a real financial stretch. I always planned to remortgage our house, which was paid off by the time my older one went to college, but my husband made some awful business decisions and the money went to that.</p>

<p>I can categorically state that both my kids had enjoyed benefits beyond just image. The school each picked really fit each of them well, and each has grown beyond my expectations.</p>

<p>These dreams schools are very academically rigorous, at least the ones they attend are, so they have had to stretch too. Those A's don't come easily there. But both have grown enormously in their perceptions of themselves. Each failed (not F's, that's not what I mean, but didn't really click) in her/his initial major, and each has undergone a real reassessment to come a current major. This involved a lot of intellectual growth.</p>

<p>I can state with utter certainty none of this would have happened at a less rigorous/less supportive school. And this was what I wanted for them.</p>

<p>I went into college with tremendous academic strength in one particular area. I think my future was clear. My kind of generic degree probably didn't hurt me at the undergrad level. But this wasn't true of either of my kids.</p>

<p>I am pleased with the outcomes, though at times I wished they had opted for easier schools. </p>

<p>Both schools have excellent alumni networks so I do expect a boost, albeit a small one, in the job search.</p>

<p>However, I am working two jobs (both in my field and well remunerated on a hourly basis) to avoid debt for any of us.</p>

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<p>anyone else find this thread depressing? How should any of us be able to say what's going to happen in 4-7 yrs?.....how about the mantra;;; "most affordable school that your child will be happy at".......I would have added, "be successful at", but at this point, I don't even know what that is going to mean.....and that is assuming one can even figure out what makes one happy.....</p>

<p>it's easy to just say, "go to the cheapest"....certainly makes sense, but some kids will not survive, be happy or thrive in all environments.......I envy the parents who have kids who can thrive anywhere.....</p>

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<p>
[quote]
you may have applied to mercedes dealers who will really be selling volvo's in the fall.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Ok, what is wrong with a volvo? I LOVE my XC ;)</p>

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<p>"I have an excellent job but not a shiny, elite job that a better brand would have given me. I have often regretted this, so I was determined that my kids could go to brand name schools if it were important to them".</p>

<p>Oh my... is it really that simple? Among my circle of friends and family, I know Harvard grads who are unemployed and state grads who have shiny elite jobs (at least I think the jobs would fit that category).
What makes a brand school important to many kids? THE BRANDING. That's the point. The marketers would have you believe that their school is the THE choice for the best and the brightest. Fact is, IMO at least, the best and the brightest kids will likely do well in many places (and research bears this out).
But, hey, when you fork over huge bucks at great financial sacrifice it certainly makes sense to justify what you've done. And perhaps it did make a difference..who knows? It's hard to compare with the path not taken...</p>

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<p>Well it is in my field because I'm a college professor. Colleges list the alma maters of their profs so they are extremely brand conscious.</p>

<p>Since my ultimate choice was between a PhD at Columbia and one at Stony Brook. I'll let you decide if my Stony Brook choice (no debt and a living wage of 10K) vs. Columbia (35 K for the masters year which I'd already done and they insisted I repeat) made a difference in which schools would ultimately employ me.</p>

<p>I don't think my earning capacity would have differed that greatly, but my experience sure would have.</p>

<p>And I don't always regret it, either. Sometimes I like my job just fine.</p>

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<p>mythmom...make sense that it depends on the field. I used to say Investment Banking was one of those prestige driven occupations but who knows how that industry will shake out over the next few years. Maybe they''ll go in reverse and hire Community College grads!
Hey, I just saw that Hyundai sales are up 14% (everyone else is WAY down except for maybe Subaru). That's partially because of the guarantee to take the car back with no penalty if one loses their job.
So maybe some private college out there might put out a similar deal. Go here and we'll waive your tuition for a semester if you lose your job. Might be a smart marketing move. The Harvards and other top schools are safe in this economy. But those privates in the lower tiers (even just one tier below) may be hurting.</p>

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<p>I have a really schizo perspective on this. I have one kid in one of the shiniest of shiny brand name LACs. I have another kid at Regional State U. (Although she plans to transfer to Flagship State U Honors College next fall.)</p>

<p>They have no big differences in brains, talent, nor in grades, test scores, or course rigor. We are also a family of very limited means, and I most emphatically do not want them (both Humanities majors) graduating with significant debt. Finances played an enormous part in college options for us. Because we are lower income (relatively) the 1st kid gets really great financial aid at his shiny brand name school. The 2nd kid gets some state and federal aid and goes to a (relatively) inexpensive college.</p>

<p>I talk to them both all the time. I hear about their classes, the professors, what they're reading, sometimes I even get to read papers they've written. Academically, I think there is a difference in the caliber of students in class with them as a generality, but in terms of what they're actually learning, the levels on which they are thinking, processing information, and being both analytical and creative... I don't see a difference at all, to be honest. Not at all. (In fact the one at State U is working on a higher level in terms of tackling complex themes, writing very polished papers -- but this is mostly attributable to her being a more natural writer and most disciplined in her study habits.)</p>

<p>I was a state u graduate myself back at the dawn of time, so I don't know anything about alumni networks and so forth. I certainly hope for Kid #1's sake that there is some truth to the perception that those connections may pay off professionally in some way.</p>

<p>He does just love his school, and on an emotional level I think it is a very excellent place for him. Not because it's a good brand, but because it's small, intimate, beautiful, and he very much appreciates his great good fortune in being able to go there. He is by nature a traditionalist, really. If the college was all the things it is, but less well-known, less branded, it would still be the perfect place for him. And there are small LACs like that, but unfortunately they do not have the resources to provide the excellent financial aid he needs be able to go.</p>

<p>Kid #2 is a different personality. She is very work-oriented (kid #1 is more social-oriented), and she will and does excel wherever she is and in whatever she does. She prefers the greater diversity of the state u; non-traditional students, more working-class presence, the brilliant mixed with the not-so-brilliant... the blank slate.</p>

<p>At Kid 1's school you feel like you are stepping into this legendary river in which generations before you have stepped, and other generations will follow, and you become a piece of IT. At Kid 2's school, whatever IT is, you make it. You make it yourself. It may be this that explains why so many top CEOs come from state schools. (My kid is about as non-CEO as you can get, but it's the same do-it-youself energy.)</p>

<p>So I have tremendous respect for both types of schools. Both my kids would do equally well if they switched places, too. They are adaptable. But I don't think one school is simply "better" than the other. They are different in certain ways, but as far as learning, reading, being exposed to new ideas, growing intellectually and creatively and emotionally, that happens on the inside of the student.</p>

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<p>^^^^^ Excellent, thoughtful post. I admire everything about it.</p>

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<p>Interesting topic. I am a professional in healthcare. Some of the young people I work with graduated from USC with gizillions in debt; others from a Cal. State U. with the same program and little debt. In this particular field it makes not a "bif of ditterence" which school they attended. Starting salary is great for both; opportunities for advancement equal, etc. So, in this case for those where money matters I think the USC debt is not worth it. For those without those worries, it isn't an issue.</p>

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<p>I agree with mythmom. Simply, a kid with the brand name degree has more options.</p>

<p>One of my children attended a state school and then transferred to a shiny LAC. She found the caliber of classes and students to be vastly different. She used the same text book in a class at each school and was amazed how different the assignments and class discussions could be using the same book. It's all about peer group in her opinion.</p>

<p>And as for networks built at shiny schools, as a Wharton grad I can tell you in my experience they are real and powerful. The loyalty these schools engender is fierce, and it's a rare grad that won't take your call.</p>

<p>There will always be 'elite' jobs whether they are on Wall Street, in academia or the industry du jour. And access to them will always be easier with the shiny school on your resume.</p>

<p>As I get older and watch my friends inherit money, whether it's just a small amount or a larger one, I think that I'd be fine if I don't leave anyone a cent because I spent it on them when they needed it most.</p>

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<p>No question that in certain circles, a shiny degree can open more doors. </p>

<p>It's important for parents and students to realize that the opposite is not necessarily the case. What happens after those doors open is about who the job candidate is and what she or he has done.</p>

<p>For example (because this was the first field I could think of in which anybody can lay eyes on somebody's CV), not having a shiny degree does not keep people from top-level teaching jobs at schools many consider to be at the very top. Three minutes of clicking very quickly and in a haphazard way through the faculty lists in all kinds of different academic departments at three extremely shiny LACs will show you heads of depts and full professors with PhDs from Purdue, UC Santa Cruz, Indiana U., and plenty of other similar, arguably less-shiny schools. And then there are the faculty members at these schools and HYPS (and everywhere else) whose CVs aren't listed. They published; they performed; whatever they did, they earned these very shiny jobs. </p>

<p>I'm not disagreeing with the idea that elite schools can offer greater opportunities, as well as valuable networks. But in light of the questions posed in this thread, I think it's really important to understand that by itself, the school where you earn your degree(s) is not an obstacle.</p>

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<p>'rentof2, what an interesting and thoughtful posting. I am so eager to hear this sort of first-hand experience comparing what, besides the outer shell, is the different between the two experiences. I love hearing that the educational experience is equivalent.</p>

<p>D has said she is used to being with smart peers and wants that in college. But since she is in a sort of "gifted program" urban public school, she is also used to great variety in her peers, socioeconomically, culturally, ethnically -- she has friends from literally all over the world among her classmates. I wonder if the tony schools would offer as rich a stew.</p>

<p>D is not statistically Ivy material, so we are considering what I guess they call 2nd and 3rd tier schools, I don't know what is ranked what, really. But name brand schools, LACs and a few small, upscale universities. She will get not one dime at any of these, whereas she has already had 4 merit aid offers from lower-prestige, lower-ranked schools. </p>

<p>One or two of the choices are oriented towards job preparation, while the others are traditional liberal arts schools. So there is a lot to consider besides price. However, D is an arts/humanities kid so I am especially worried about racking up huge debt for undergraduate education. I also worry that if not surrounded by smart, serious students she could get so caught up in her social life that she would start skipping class, etc. I think peer pressure is HUGELY important, in spite of the rant that "it doesn't matter where you go, you can get a great education anywhere." That may be true for very self-motivated kids who know what they want. But for those who are not so sure, the level of attention from professors and the influence of peers can be crucial.</p>