Is it worth the price?

Parents Forum
1

<p>Is it reallly worth paying a much higher price, (tuition, room and board) for a private school vs. a state school?</p>

<p>I do believe that for some privates-- name recognition, prestige, recruitment at school--makes it probably worth it. But for unrecognized schools, why pay the higher price??</p>

<p>And what is the cut -off? Harvard (Yale, Princeton, Standford) is better than State U. But is Brown, Penn., Cornell or Dartmouth? Many people in my area have never heard of these schools, (That would be rural America)</p>

<p>Williams and Amherst may be worth it (or not) , but are probably much less known than Harvard. etc. Is it worth it to pay for Vasser, Colgate, Hamilton, Bucknell, Skidmore, Richmond Union, etc, etc.?</p>

<p>Having 3 kids at expensive "top" schools, I am wondering if, in the end, it is worth it.</p>

2

<p>I think it depends on the child. Some will take advantage of every opportunity that a private school offers. Others will 'miss the boat'.</p>

3

<p>In my opinion it depends on the student, the school and the family financial situation. And no one can say if it was "worth it" other than the family. </p>

<p>In our family, adults support themselves. All of my grandparents were financially independent, my parents should be and I plan on that for myself. I cannot take the position of paying any price for my son's education and fund retirement. The numbers just do not work. </p>

<p>We've been open and honest with our kid all along. He's got his eye on some merit aid, is looking in-state and at some of the more affordable out-of-state public schools. We'll do everything we can to help him get where he wants to go but there is a financial limit for our family.</p>

<p>I hope that my child will think that in the end it was a good use of him time; that is was a worthwhile experience and prepared him for his life independent of us, whatever that may look like. If that happens, they it will have been worth it. Even if it doesn't turn out that way, providing what we could to give him the chance at it will have been worth it for our family.</p>

4

<p>Yes because at the end of the day all of these schools have incredible placement into top graduate schools, have great students which means incredible social/ career networks, and place very well into TOP business jobs (banking/ consulting). Look at Obama's cabinet, almost every grad went to an Ivy - well beyond HYPS. Bobby Jindal heralded as a potential new GOP Obama went to Brown. Obama Columbia and Harvard Law. Timothy Geithner, the new treasury secretary went to Dartmouth. Sure many state school alums are successful, but the top schools tend to inordinately broaden horizons. There is far less of a difference between Penn and Harvard than there is between Penn and schools ranked outside the top 50 USNEWS. </p>

<p>It isn't what your neighbor thinks. Its what people in the know think. I think, however, the list does end. Penn, Brown, or Williams is going to open many more doors than Union or Hamilton. </p>

<p>But I do think HYPS is over-glorified.</p>

5

<p>It depends on the student AND it depends on the area of study. Some state universities have excellent departments in certain areas. Some kids will thrive in a large school environment. Some kids are great at navigating the large school system. Some kids would find all of the above more difficult.</p>

<p>At the end of the day, your child is not going to interact with 40,000 students at the state U. They are going to find a group of like minded peers with whom to interact. </p>

<p>I think kids can get an excellent education at either type of school. For some kids a smaller, private school experience is worth the money. For some kids, their major drives the private school expenditure (not every state has a conservatory level music program in their publics, for example).</p>

6

<p>The quality and type of undergrad institution will impact the quality of a student's college peer group, which is a huge influence. Your student will aspire to live up to their peers' standards, whoever they are. S/he will - intentionally or subconsciously - adopt many of their habits and behaviors. On CC, there are always threads in which prospective students ask "what schools are strong in this field?" They'd probably be better off seeking schools at which the students appear to have the level of skills and attainments that they aspire to have. I asked my D, after her freshman year at Harvard, how she felt about her decision to go there. She said "If you'd asked me a year ago whether I wanted to work this hard in college I'd have said 'heck no,' but once you're here, it's just part of the campus culture and what everyone else is doing, so it doesn't feel like so much work."</p>

7

<p>Morrismm,</p>

<p>We keep crossing paths on these threads and your question is one I ask myself often. I know you have a student who is a freshman at Bucknell and my daughter is a freshman there as well. I know it must be so difficult for your family with 3 at expensive schools. We are currently struggling to pay the $50k/year at Bucknell along with $25k for my younger daughter’s high school and college is just around the corner for her.</p>

<p>Both of my daughters are hard working and motivated and have fully embraced all that a private school education offers. While I cannot quantify a justification for the dollars paid over a less expensive school or in my younger daughter’s case, a public school with no tuition, I feel it is a decision we made based on our family priorities and what we believe is best for our daughters. </p>

<p>This may seem like a silly analogy but my husband and I have always driven bare-boned Hondas... sturdy, reliable and will get us where we need to go. My dearest friends have always driven top-of-the-line Luxury cars... I am sure they are having much more enjoyable rides in their cars but they are paying dearly for that luxury. They have sent their daughters to our public school where I know they are relatively happy with the education they are receiving and they have a daughter who is a senior this year who will most likely attend our state university. </p>

<p>Bottom-line, it's all a matter of priorities and you have to do what you believe is best for your family at the time. It's human nature for us to question our decisions. We are so fortunate that the decision is ours to make … at least for the time being.</p>

8

<p>
[quote]
Yes because at the end of the day all of these schools have incredible placement into top graduate schools, have great students which means incredible social/ career networks, and place very well into TOP business jobs (banking/ consulting). Look at Obama's cabinet, almost every grad went to an Ivy - well beyond HYPS. Bobby Jindal heralded as a potential new GOP Obama went to Brown. Obama Columbia and Harvard Law. Timothy Geithner, the new treasury secretary went to Dartmouth. Sure many state school alums are successful, but the top schools tend to inordinately broaden horizons.

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<p>This sort of argument is made quite often to support the idea that expensive private schools are somehow much much better than any other schools, but there's one problem... it's a load of nonsense.</p>

<p>Almost all of the people you are talking about went to university decades ago, and yes I would agree that decades ago many of those schools were probably quite a bit better than your average US university. However, today the situation is much much different. </p>

<p>Today, many of our country's top students don't go to these schools... and the school they choose may not only just be cheaper, it may actually be much better for whatever studies they're interested in pursuing (shock horror). </p>

<p>Look at metrics based on recent data, such as school with students winning prestigious awards such as a Marshall or Rhodes Scholarship. During the period highlighted by the quote above, yes many of these smaller private schools dominated the set of schools pulling in these awards. Today, while these schools still do well many other, far less expensive, schools have showed up on scene and achieved a similar level of success. Just for example, from 1960-66 Harvard won 9, 3, 10, 2, 5, 6, 6 Marshalls each year... from 2004-2008 Harvard won 0, 1, 1, 2, 1 each year... and the number of scholarships awarded actually went up during that period. </p>

<p>I know it's frustrating when someone pays silly sums to attend a private school when they want to justify that it was worth it (if ones asking then that sort of answers the question if you ask me). These private schools can be fantastic, but just because they cost more doesn't mean they're any better than some other (god forbid a 'state') school.</p>

9

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<p>This is the number one reason why my D wants to attend a school with a top quality student body. Of course, everyone else there also wants to attend these schools for the same reasons. Top professors also want to work at these schools so that they have colleagues with high standards...in addition to excellent students. This is what allows the 'top ranked' schools to keep attracting top students year after year, decade after decade, and I don't see much evidence that this is going to stop any time soon.</p>

10

<p>There is really no answer to this question. There are several ways of looking at it. To go deeply into debt for any school, including HYP, is definitely not worth it. But the area of study is such an important component. The ivies are not tops in many fields. </p>

<p>The quote above about the "incredible placement into top graduate schools" is simply wrong. Maybe true for banking or business, but ivies have no advantage in most other fields. Here's something that may open your eyes -- look at the undergraduate institutions of current graduate students attending the top schools in your child's field of interest. This information is available online and would be a surprise to many. Our state flagship regularly sends its graduates to top med and law schools, as well as fully funded science Phd. programs at the very best schools.</p>

<p>The cohort of students is largely what you are paying for at the undergraduate level, and that is the debating point. I attended an ivy and feel like my parents wasted their money. Yes, my fellow students were bright and motivated, but my particular department was weak and I did not benefit professionally from the overall quality of the school. When deciding on a college, I should have paid more attention to department quality rather than the general reputation of the school.</p>

<p>On the other hand, my daughter is attending our state flagship and turned down several top schools for financial reasons. Her department is ranked among the very best in her field and the recruiting here surpasses that of all the ivies and is on par with Stanford, Berkeley, and MIT. Again, this information is available online -- it's easy to see which companies recruit and how often.</p>

<p>There is a down side -- you have to find your own group at a big school and it can be hard. My daughter is learning a lot, working hard, and getting lots of positive recognition. But she does complain that there are few other students who are studious and she wishes she had a larger group of like-minded kids. So it is far from perfect.</p>

<p>One last thing -- our excellent high school regularly sends kids to all the ivies, Stanford, MIT, etc. The school is very small and we know most of the kids well. There is absolutely no difference in the stats or competitiveness of the kids who go on to top private colleges vs. our flagship state school. And the ultimate graduate school/career trajectories of both groups of kids bears this out. The only difference between the two groups is parental income. The state school has a largely middle class population.</p>

11

<p>"The quality and type of undergrad institution will impact the quality of a student's college peer group, which is a huge influence. Your student will aspire to live up to their peers' standards, whoever they are. S/he will - intentionally or subconsciously - adopt many of their habits and behaviors." </p>

<p>That would be true if every student gravitated towards the median at their school. That's not exactly what happens. Top students at state schools definitely gravitate towards each other, especially at schools with strong Honors programs that encourage both socialization and academic excellence. It's like what Thumper said earlier: "At the end of the day, your child is not going to interact with 40,000 students at the state U. They are going to find a group of like minded peers with whom to interact."</p>

<p>But I don't mind hanging out with the other kinds of people either. Not everyone you meet in life will be "Ivy-educated" so it can't hurt to start dealing with those people now. Believe it or not, they might actually be pretty awesome people, even if their SAT scores and GPA aren't that high. Some of most brilliant intellectual people I've met are terrible students, but they just think that school gets in the way of their education. </p>

<p>So maybe the peer group at a state school won't consist of all the top-tier players on Wall Street or K street. That's fine. They will still produce many, many doctors, lawyers, local politicians, business owners, etc. who will be quite successful in life and probably several who will go on to succeed beyond even the "top-tier" school people. </p>

<p>I also want to correct the misconception that state schools offer fewer opportunities than private schools. That's simply not true. From my experience, state schools have far greater resource bases and are much more willing to share those resources with their top students. It depends on the school and student, but I'd argue that a self-motivated top student would do better at a state school than an Ivy League school simply because of the sheer number of leadership, research, and academic opportunities available to a big fish in a big pond. </p>

<p>Finally, from a financial standpoint, going to a state school on a scholarship opened up so many more opportunities than going to a private school. Having financial freedom allowed me to do crazy things like do field research in Africa over the summer, go on a cross-country geological roadtrip, and intern (unpaid) for a nonprofit instead of working a summer job. During the school year, I could focus on my academic work and social life rather than worrying about finances. This is not to denigrate people who have to work- it's definitely a good thing to do as well, but I'd imagine they'd rather be doing something else. Plus, now that I'm at the end of undergrad, I can have my pick of what I want to do for grad school and don't have to worry about the onerous weight of student loans (and my parents are much more willing to help me out too). </p>

<p>So is a private school education worth it? Only for students who believe they'll never succeed at a state school, because if they believe that then they certainly won't, or for students who are not self-motivated. For students who are open-minded and self-motivated, a state school experience is equally on par, if not superior to, a private school education.</p>

12

<p>I don't think there is a difference, except everyone wants to go there. I'm looking at cheaper end local schools that provide as an education as the "top schools" would provide me for half the cost.</p>

13

<p>
[quote]
So is a private school education worth it? Only for students who believe they'll never succeed at a state school, because if they believe that then they certainly won't, or for students who are not self-motivated. For students who are open-minded and self-motivated, a state school experience is equally on par, if not superior to, a private school education.

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<p>Just taking the sciences for example, a large 'public' research university will have equipment and resources that are vastly superior to anything found at most small (and very expensive) private schools. </p>

<p>I attended such a public research school for my undergraduate education (and a prestigious 'private' school for grad school, one of the few with on-par science resources, so I feel somewhat qualified to discuss this topic ;-) ). During undergrad, when meeting students from small private schools at conferences, seminars and the like it quickly became obvious that I had hands on experience working with equipment and technology that they had only read about in textbooks. </p>

<p>The potential disadvantage of the large public research institution is that the environment requires one to really be a 'self motivating high achieving go getter' type personality to really open up all those doors... and there are lots of doors at such an institution. Someone with that personality will have many more opportunities than they would have at an expensive small private school. So in this context I'd somewhat have to agree with the (admittedly generalist) comment that the small private would only be better if the individual would have trouble making it at the big research university. </p>

<p>Oh, and as for this whole nonsense about the small expensive school providing much better placement into top grad schools... this is a total load of hogwash. Every top tier student in our department was accepted into essentially every top grad school they applied to with full rides.</p>

<p>I'm certainly have nothing against these small expensive schools, and for some they provide the type of environment needed to succeed. But these generalist comments that they're somehow in a league of their own compared to less expensive schools couldn't possibly be further from the truth. They are in a league of their own in terms of costs... but not in terms of education.</p>

14

<p>Depends on the student and the school. Some of the top public U's are much better than most private schools- why pay more for a lesser education, with less able students (based on test scores/grades)? There is life outside of the private schools and the east coast. Not everyone's idea of success is living/working in New York/DC... One thing I noticed when checking on course offerings- some major flagship state U's have many more diverse course offerings than some of the Ivies, much less other LAC's. I also noticed that textbooks used at the elite privates are often written by someone at some faraway public institution. Honors programs make a huge difference. It does take a certain ability to be successful at a large public U without the coddling found at some smaller private U's. Keep in mind that the flagship u's have a lot of Ivy qualified students- there are far too many to be accomodated by any one school.</p>

15

<p>As a resident of a state with free tuition for qualified students, this is something that our family is struggling with. Frankly, is it worth it to pay for any college when the state has two highly regarded universities, especially in specific programs.</p>

<p>Our challenge is that neither school may be the right fit for our first child -- so do you force the square peg into a round hole. I do think that our next two children are better fits for the State Us, so maybe that helps me justify paying for something different for the older one.</p>

<p>Many of my friends with very bright motivated children have made the deal with the kids that if they take the "free ride" then they will pay for/help with graduate school. </p>

<p>It is an interesting question.</p>

16

<p>This subject has been discussed at great length and in many variations here on CC, and the sensible answer is always the same: depends on which private, depends on which public, which kid and which budget. Bottom line: there are many paths to postgraduate success.</p>

17

<p>^^Yes, but there is particular relevance in light of the current economy, shrinking family wealth and uncertain future job prospects of graduates (and of many parents too).</p>

18

<p>Good question, and one we ask ourselves as well, since we have a younger one coming up who is unsure of exactly what he's looking for in a school. A lot of these LAC's look very appealing, cost aside.</p>

<p>Also though, coming from a small but diverse district, we get the feeling that the cost has resulted in somewhat homogenous student bodies, which seem even more so when looking at a population of only 1600 or so.</p>

19

<p>As many of you have stated--the answer to my question depends on many factors. And of course one can get an excellent education at some top notch state schools. But the competition is fierce to get into these highly ranked, expensive private schools and many thousands of students apply. Clearly, many people think they are worth it.</p>

<p>For my family, it is too late. My 3 kids are in expensive private schools. And unless we find that we just cannot afford it anymore, I will not ask them to transfer. They all seem to be getting great educations, have had some wonderful opportunities and experiences and have met many very intelligent fellow students who come from around the world. I do not think they would have had these same experiences at our state schools. </p>

<p>But now that the school decisions have been made and even though I know all my kids are happy and love their schools, when I see how much money it is costing (we are not going into debt) I cannot help but wonder if it was worth it. </p>

<p>Maybe, as vicariousparent said, I'm feeling this way because of the current economy.</p>

20

<p>Our D attends a 2nd tier LAC. It is expensive, but she earned some scholarships which helped bring the cost down. Our in-state publics are very good, but not cheap, and we would have been paying full fare. So for us, it was a question of whether we felt the LAC was worth approximately $8K more per year than the state flagship, since that was the difference in our out-of-pocket expenses. </p>

<p>We work overseas, so in any case, we knew our D would be far from home, and the smaller LAC seemed better for her personality and preferences. If D had been awarded a large scholarship from the state U, or if we were in one of the states with a "Bright Futures" type of program, it would have been harder for me to be willing to pay as much as we are for the LAC. But as it is, it is not that much more than the alternatives, and I am just thankful we can pay it.</p>