Is Lacrosse one of College's major sports?

College Search & Selection
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<p>As for claims by Ivy partisans that they have different admissions standards than other colleges against which they compete in lacrosse, this is dubious at best. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence to refute such claims as lenient entrance standards for lacrosse athletes are commonplace at many Ivy colleges. </p>

<p>While it is impossible to measure anecdotes, the NCAA publishes outcome data—the Academic Progress Rate (APR) measurement. All participating Division I colleges report this data for lacrosse. There are mostly no material differences in academic progress rates between the Ivy colleges and other highly ranked colleges who field lacrosse teams. </p>

<p>Following is how the highly ranked colleges compare on the APR measurement for their lacrosse student athletes. </p>

<pre><code> 2009 Academic Progress Rates (based on 2007-08 school year data)
</code></pre>

<p>Mens Lacrosse , College</p>

<p>1000 , Harvard
1000 , Yale
1000 , U North Carolina
1000 , Colgate
1000 , Lafayette
998 , Dartmouth
997 , Notre Dame
995 , Princeton
995 , Navy
993 , Duke
991 , U Penn
989 , Brown
989 , Johns Hopkins
986 , Cornell
985 , Penn State
982 , Georgetown
981 , U Virginia
981 , Holy Cross
974 , Lehigh
972 , Nat’l Avg for Division I
966 , Bucknell
962 , Army</p>

<p>Women’s Lacrosse , College</p>

<p>1000 , Lafayette
1000 , Dartmouth
1000 , Princeton
1000 , Navy
1000 , U Penn
1000 , Penn State
1000 , Lehigh
1000 , Bucknell
998 , Northwestern
998 , U North Carolina
998 , Brown
997 , Stanford
997 , Vanderbilt
997 , Notre Dame
997 , Johns Hopkins
995 , Harvard
995 , U Virginia
994 , UC Berkeley
993 , Columbia
991 , Yale
990 , Duke
990 , Cornell
989 , Georgetown
985 , Nat’l Avg for Division I
984 , Holy Cross
981 , American
977 , Colgate</p>

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<p>Admissions/Entrance Standards =/= Outcome Data (APR). HTH.</p>

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<p>If you’re unwilling to accept NCAA data as useful, then please provide something that will substantiate your claim,</p>

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<p>This is the typicial Ivy arrogance that we get subjected to every day. You lose and then your only response is to disparage another school. Very classy. Very Ivy.</p>

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<p>You’re the one making the claim that the Ivies do not have different admissions/entrance standards than ND, Duke, etc. for lacrosse. So the burden of proof lies on you to come up with data relevant to admissions/entrance standards, which the APR clearly isn’t.</p>

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<p>This is a totally commensurate and proportionate response to the following “classy” post:</p>

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<p>And are you denying that unlike the Ivies, ND and Duke offer their lacrosse players athletic scholarships???</p>

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<p>I’m not defending the Mr.F post, but the double standards that Ivy partisans try to get away with are tiresome. There are lots of kids playing Ivy sports that academically wouldn’t have a prayer of getting in. Enough with the holier than thou…There are lots of great schools (including the Ivies and places like ND, Duke, U Virginia) that don’t deserve disparagement, especially in light of the FACT that they graduate their student-athletes at roughly the same rate. </p>

<p>I would not apply the same comments necessarily to football or men’s basketball as there are some major statistical differences with some colleges (and I have the data to demonstrate it if you want to see it). But lacrosse is not the same thing as all of these colleges are recruiting the same players, the large majority of which are coming from private or highly affluent public high schools in the NE.</p>

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<p>Gg
Re your “pay their players” dig, I think you are referring to athletic scholarships. I don’t know how many there are for lacrosse players, but it definitely ain’t football or basketball. Anyway, scholarship or no, I’m not sure why this is even relevant. </p>

<p>Also, have you factored in the wealth of these schools? College A (Ivy college) has a large endowment and can afford to give financial aid to a family that has $150,000 in annual income. College B (non-Ivy college) has fewer resources or chooses to spend in a different way and cannot offer financial aid to the same family. The student chooses College A. Would you consider this as “paying” the student to attend College A (Ivy college)?</p>

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<p>No one said otherwise. But that doesn’t mean that for lacrosse players, the admissions standards for the Ivies aren’t higher than those for ND, Duke, etc. ND and Duke lacrosse players (and other athletes) do not even have to submit an application like other students, for crying out loud.</p>

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<p>No, because it is NEED-based aid, which differentiates it from talent or merit-based aid.</p>

<p>Moreover, financial aid has as much to do with commitment to economic diversity as it does to endowment size. For example, Brown’s endowment is less than half that of ND. But Brown’s FA is significantly stronger than ND’s.</p>

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<p>I don’t know about the application thing, but I do know that for lacrosse, the following is true:</p>

<p>Notre Dame’s men’s team has a higher graduation level than Princeton, U Penn, Brown, Cornell.<br>
Notre Dame’s women’s team has a higher level than Harvard, Columbia and Yale.</p>

<p>Duke’s men’s team has a higher graduation level than U Penn, Brown and Cornell.
Duke’s women’s team has an equal level to Cornell. </p>

<p>Re your response on need-based aid to the family that has $150,000 in annual income, the standards are not the same. One school has the ability to offer it and the other does not. One school is offering a financial inducement to attend; the other is not.</p>

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<p>I think when he said “Ivies don’t pay their players like Notre Dame does” he may have been referring to athletic scholarships, which schools like Duke, ND, and UVA offer, and the Ivies do not.</p>

<p>I don’t know much about Lacrosse, but in any game that has widespread appeal schools like Notre Dame are going to kick the butts of the Ivies. Look, you can beat your chest all you want about Notre Dame, and its fine. But the bottom line is that every Lacrosse player at Princeton, for example, would have been able to get into ND academically had he been recruited to play there. While there are some at Notre Dame who could say the same, I’d venture a guess that a fair number of them would not–not necessarily that they’d prefer an Ivy, just that they likely wouldn’t qualify. Even though the standards might be a 2100 for a great Lacrosse player, you’re still drastically shrinking your prospective athlete pool.</p>

<p>@JohnAdams–the reason the numbers for D3 football are so much smaller is because the stadiums are smaller. Even a school like Northwestern, what you could consider an average or below average football school, has a stadium that seats into the tens of thousands.</p>

<p>At the D3 level, stadiums that seat 5000 are considered pretty large. And the student bodies aren’t big either. I think an average over 1500 is extremely impressive if youre averaging all D3 teams.</p>

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<p>msauce,
You’re greatly overrating the difficulty of an athlete getting into an Ivy college. They certainly don’t need a 2100 SAT. LOL. Run the Academic Index program here on CC and you’ll discover that even a score under 1700 can be sufficient to get one to the required AI level. </p>

<p>You Ivy guys are so parsimonious sometimes. You know, there are other good colleges around the USA who do a good job with their lacrosse student athletes, both in terms of admission and graduation. Notre Dame and Duke are two of those schools.</p>

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<p>That explains why, for example, Brown offers better financial aid than ND, despite having less than half the endowment.</p>

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<p>That is the MINIMUM. There are tons of ND football players and Duke basketball players with ~1300 (out of 2400) or lower SATs. Some of them only have to meet NCAA minimum eligibility requirements.</p>

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<p>As noted earlier, I’m posting re lacrosse and the standards. I concur that admissions standards are different for many colleges in their recruitment for football and basketball (heavily influenced by the large number of minorities that fall into this category). However, if you do a little digging, you actually find that ND and Duke don’t compare that badly and goodness knows that the quality of teams that they are competing against are a far cry above the Browns and Dartmouths and Princetons of the world.</p>

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<p>You have provided NO evidence whatsoever that for lacrosse, the likes of Duke and ND have the same admissions requirements as the Ivies. The APR data do not speak to entrance (only outcome) data.</p>

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<p>The Duke basketball team is mostly white. Didn’t you watch “March Madness?”</p>

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<p>In response to your comments on ND’s financial aid, I’m not sure what you’re referring to. When I research their data, here is what I find in comparison to the Ivy colleges:</p>

<p>% of students receiving aid, % of need met, College</p>

<p>60% , 100% , Harvard
58% , 100% , Yale
57% , 100% , Princeton
49% , 100% , Dartmouth
48% , 100% , Columbia
47% , 100% , NOTRE DAME
44% , 100% , Brown
43% , 100% , U Penn
39% , 100% , Cornell</p>

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<p>Different schools define “need” differently. At the Ivies, students whose family income is $60,000 or less get free tuition (without loans). ND does not offer anything remotely like this guarantee.</p>

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<p>Gg,
I can’t speak to the racial hue of Duke’s men’s basketball team, but according to the NCAA, their record for graduating their players is every bit as good or better than many Ivy colleges.</p>

<p>Men’s Basketball APR , College</p>

<p>1000 , Columbia
996 , Princeton
996 , Yale
995 , Harvard
989 , DUKE
984 , U Penn
982 , NOTRE DAME
982 , Brown
977 , Cornell
976 , Dartmouth</p>

<p>933 , Nat’l Avg for Division I</p>

<p>Congratulations. Yet another example of Ivy arrogance/declaration of superiority that is not borne out by the facts. What’s with you guys??? Stop disparaging other schools unless you have the data to support it.</p>

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<p>Like I said:</p>

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<p>Gg,
Re your statement,</p>

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<p>I don’t believe that any admissions data is available that would compare the lacrosse athletes at Duke and ND with the Ivy colleges. Please correct me if I am wrong.</p>

<p>I think a similar observation can be made that you have posted NO evidence that the admissions standards are different.</p>

<p>Despite your hopeful, but feeble, attempts to undermine, the NCAA graduation data is relevant and reflects a college’s commitment to admitting quality students and helping keep them on the path to graduation. For lacrosse, there is little to no difference in how Notre Dame and Duke compare to the Ivy colleges.</p>