Is Michigan *GASP* too easy to get admitted into???

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Michigan
81

<p>kb54010, Michigan is one hell of a deal for you, isn't it?</p>

<p>My nephew has a 3.9 gpa at Stanford. He has found the the advising to be almost non-existant. Maybe, some of that is his fault. He is disappointed with the advising.</p>

<p>Like I said, I think Michigan's advising stinks.</p>

<p>The rankings are a bunch of BS. For each person, the rankings are different. I would never have gone to Swarthmore. I doubt I would have gone to Brown.</p>

<p>I went to Berkeley and thought the school was great and the advising awful.</p>

<p>My top 4 choices would be Berkeley, Michigan, Stanford and UCLA, and I don't care what the rankings say.</p>

<p>Sombody else may like Swat, Brown, Chicago, Princeton, or whatever.</p>

<p>So what?</p>

<p>Oh yeah, my daughter applied to Wash U and told her interviewer she liked Michigan better. Her interviewer understood. Her kid wanted to go to Michigan but didn't get in so he went to Wash U where he had a great time.</p>

82

<p>
[quote]
kb54010, Michigan is one hell of a deal for you, isn't it?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>HAH.....checkmate. Indeed it is a good deal for ME. Its free for me. But my concern extends beyond myself to the 35% of this school that gets to pay double price for UM.</p>

<p>Yeah...the existance and the availability of advising are two differant things. At UM, there is plenty of advising, but the size of the school makes it difficult to get. Now, if they just don't have too much advising at Stanford, that's a whole differant pie.</p>

83

<p>Yeah, checkmate on me. I'm paying $40,000 a year and I'm not even the one going. :(</p>

84

<p>Well, someone asked in an earlier thread why someone would pay out-of-state tuition given that you can go to a 'better' (higher ranked, more personal, more selective, you name it) private school for much the same price.</p>

<p>I think that some students make that choice for the whole experience U-M offers. Maybe some of them are deluded that this is like an ivy, but I suspect most aren't. They know there's a bigger mix of abilities here. But Michigan offers some things that other places don't, and I'd presume that they consciously chose this place because of it.</p>

<p>When I got here as a grad student I wondered, myself. I thought this was great for grads but wondered why nonresident undergrads would pay so much! But I've come to understand that for many, Michigan is a perfect blend of decent academics, big-time athletics, cool college town, mix of majors, strength in a staggering array of fields, and so on. It's the whole bag. </p>

<p>If some of you feel misled, that's a bad thing and I'm sorry for it. I hope you find a niche, or successfully transfer to a place that fits you better.</p>

85

<p>Ivy grads don't get to see their teams on TV every week. After you graduate and start working and nobody really cares where you went to school that's something to enjoy after graduation. If you are lucky enough to live close you can even get season tickets and have fun Saturdays for life.</p>

86

<p>I don't get why people applied here in the first place if they knew tuition was going to be this high, and they knew that they couldn't transfer, and they knew it wasn't the kind of college they wanted to be at.</p>

<p>Those are the kind of students Michigan doesn't need. The one's applying here as a safety, when they really want an Ivy League school. They just come here miserable, like they don't want to be here, and just complain about people being stupid, the school not being great, etc.</p>

87

<p>Ummm...."those" kids who apply to Michigan as a safety are the ones who carry the water in terms of UM's average stats. The only reason admission is competitive to begin with is because of us evil "Ivy-first" kids. Not only does Michigan need us, but Michigan wants us. They want as many high qualification kids as possible to drive down admissions rates and make the school appear competitive.</p>

<p>Let me speak personally. I knew with near certainty that UM was going to give me an LSA scholarship because of the summer program I did there. Nothing about this school has suprised me, and I want to make sure that nothing about this school suprises anybody else...ESPECIALLY people who are paying for it.</p>

88

<p>KB, DSTARK's nephew is not alone in not getting advising at Stanford. I have two excellent friends (currently visiting me in the UAE for Chritsmas as a matter of fact) who attended Stanford, and both told me that Stanford's attention to undergraduates was actually very poor, and that they almost never got to meet with their advisors. </p>

<p>MichWoman, when I say large research universities, I am including Cal, Columbia, Chicago, Cornell, Harvard, Johns Hopkins, MIT, Northwestern, Penn, Stanford, UCLA and Wisconsin. And like I said above, Stanford and Michigan are very similar in the attention they give their undergrads.</p>

<p>You also say that "Most out-of-staters at those schools are there because they all have really focused undergraduate programs that outrank virtually every other private school in areas such as engineering, computer science, chemistry or mathematics. Michigan LS&A doesn't, though." I am not sure what you are saying her MichWoman. Are you saying that LSA doesn't have top ranked programs? Well, that's not true at all. Let us review some of Michigtan's top LSA department rankings (according to the USNWR or the NRC):</p>

<p>American Studies: Ranked #3 in the nation
Anthropology: Ranked #1 in the nation.
Arabic: Ranked #2 in the nation.
Asian Studies: Ranked #6 in the nation.
Classics: Ranked #4 in the nation.
East European Studies: Ranked #5 in the nation.
Economics: Ranked #11 in the nation. Major hunting ground for IBanks and government think-tanks.
French: Ranked #7 in the nation.
Geology: Ranked among the top 5 in the nation.
History: Ranked #6 in the nation.
Italian: Ranked #7 in the nation.
Japanese: Ranked #7 in the nation.
Mathematics: Ranked #8 in the nation.
Medieval Studies: Ranked #7 in the nation.
Middle Eastern Studies: Ranked #7 in the nation.
Political Science: Ranked #3 in the nation.
Psychology: Ranked #2 in the nation.
Russian: Ranked #5 in the nation.
Sociology: Ranked #3 in the nation.
Spanish: Ranked #6 in the nation.</p>

<p>So MichWoman, as you can see, there are many highly ranked LSA programs. </p>

<p>You also say; "hoedown, peer regard will not be relevant to most of these posters until they're considering graduate admissions. Peer ratings are how professors at other institutions think of the University of Michigan. Our faculty is quite superb in many areas. Since research and grant money is so heavily emphasized in keeping departments and reputations afloat in the academic world, Michigan gets a very high peer rating because our professors do put out top-quality research and get lots of money in many fields. That really doesn't say much about undergraduate education quality."</p>

<p>That's an interesting conclusion. And how do you think those professors at other universities came to their conculsions about undergraduate education? When the academics who fill the peer assessment scores do so, they are measuing undergraduate education. Their primary focus is the quality and preparedness of their graduate students when they first got to their programs. Obviously, they are very impressed by Michigan's output. Do you think that if Michigan did not prepare students extremely well for graduate school, that Michigan's peer assessment score would be that high? </p>

<p>Finally, you say; "Michigan ranks 22nd in the listing of undergraduate rankings in USNews. I think that's probably one of the few fair assessments of undergraduate institutions on that list. To compare Michigan to the top research Ivies is to make invalid comparisons." </p>

<p>Really, maybe to you. But Gerhard Casper, President of Stanford University, certainly disagrees with you. </p>

<p><a href="http://www.stanford.edu/dept/pres-provost/president/speeches/961206gcfallow.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.stanford.edu/dept/pres-provost/president/speeches/961206gcfallow.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Make no mistake, Gerhard Casper completed all his studies at Yale. He then tought at and eventually decame the dean of the University of Chicago Law School. He definitely knows what he is saying and his sentiments are shared by most people in academe. So yes, Michigan does compare to the Ivies. You don't have to like it, you don't even have to accept it, but the facts, the rankings and the opinions of those who truly make a difference (corporate recruiters and leaders as well as grad school adcoms) definitely know it.</p>

89

<p>Alexandre, the rankings of LS&A departments you have provided are the same programs that I have cited repeatedly for their strengths. I also said that Michigan engineering is definitely worth coming for out-of-state. You also keep dodging the issues, which is the poor teaching, intro classes and overall treatment of arts and sciences undergraduates. Rankings don't mean anything to students unless they feel they're getting an education deserving of that rank. Many don't feel that way. That is the point I've been making. </p>

<p>Sure, Michigan prepares you very well for graduate school. I've mentioned that previously on a few occasions. It can also feel like going through hell and back in the course of a semester if you consider all of the factors mentioned previously by myself and other students. I'm also amazed when you say Michigan provides a better academic education than Columbia. I don't think the peer rankings agree, if that's the measure you are using!</p>

<p>Michigan compares to the Ivies in research output and blows most of them out of the water, of course. I said that they didn't compare in terms of undergraduate focus if your logic is that big research universities cannot provide undergraduate focus. You claim that a university cannot provide both good teaching and good research; I use the Ivies as a counterexample.</p>

<p>So Gerald Casper, a Yale grad, says that U of M deserves a better ranking than what it gets. I agree in many ways. This school is very underrated as compared to Brown, NYU, Georgetown and UVA. He never knew it was like to be a student here, however. My dad has been in academia for almost 30 years and insisted I apply to Michigan because he holds it in similar regard. I think what he didn't realize is that a state university is a state university, regardless of its supposed peer regard. It's tough, huge and at many times, unaccommodating. Those who had the luxury of private schooling think that any school that is ranked above Georgetown or close to Brown must treat its students similarly. I made that assumption as well. I'm just telling seniors that rankings don't mean much-and that tenet goes both ways at UMich.</p>

90

<p>What are you going to get at Brown and Georgetown that you aren't going to get at Michigan?</p>

<p>My brother-in-law went to Brown for grad school so I'm curious.</p>

91

<p>dstark, I'm sorry that your nephew had a poor advising experience at Stanford. I'm also really happy to hear that your daughter is doing well at Michigan. If your nephew had problems with Stanford, why didn't you tell him to transfer as well? </p>

<p>Everyone has their preferences and that's just those intangibles that you can't rank but just feel. I know now that Yale, my first choice in high school, would rank at the bottom of a list for me now. I thought I would hate Wellesley or MIT and I realize how much I would have loved either school. That's not the same as having actual grievances with the overall attitude towards teaching and undergrads that are shared by the large part of the academic community. Of course people would rather not be at some schools. That's not a matter of rankings; that's a matter of being human.</p>

<p>The problem here is that people keep trying to counter a widely acknowleged problem with anecdotes or statistics that don't address what's bugging people. Just because people are on scholarship doesn't mean that they should take whatever the school gives them. Like kb mentioned, it's funny how the people keep citing as the ones who bring Michigan's status up are the ones these alumni/parents like to tear down. </p>

<p>I would discuss the Honors College but I have finals tomorrow and I could wax poetic about all that's wrong with them for hours. Good night, everyone.</p>

92

<p>OK, good luck tomorrow. The other schools aren't perfect either.</p>

<p>My nephew loves Stanford, don't get the wrong idea.</p>

<p>A person who likes Wellesley or MIT probably won't like Michigan.</p>

93

<p>I never said Michigan is better than Columbia. I always put them in the same peer group. The peer assessment score is very telling, but obviously not 100% accurate. Dartmouth, Penn, Northwestern and Brown usually get peer assessment scores that are slightly lower than Michigan. Does that make Michigan better? Of course not. Cal usually has a peer assessment score slightly higher than Columbia and Cornell. Does that make Cal better? Of course not. All of those schools are peers.</p>

<p>And MichWoman, Michigan treats its undergrads as well as most elite private universities etc...teaching at most great research universities will be spotty and Freshman classes will always be large. Your father knows much more about academe than you do. You are an idealist, your father is a realist. No university of Michigan's stature save perhaps Brown, Dartmouth and Princeton, will be appreciably better than Michigan at providing good attention to their undergrads. You forget that I am an Ivy alum. Not all Ivies provide a greater undergraduate focus than Michigan. Columbia, Cornell, Harvard and Penn certainly don't. I am a cornell alum, my mother is a Columbia alum and my father is a Georgetown alum and was a professor at Columbia. My uncle is a Penn alum. We all saw how their undergraduate students are treated, what sort of teaching they receive and the level of their undergraduate student bodies. We were all TAs and graded students at those schools. Not only did we study and teach at those amazing universities, we still have close ties to those universities. Altough I do not have any personal experience with Harvard, most people in the know agree that Harvard is quite possibly the least undergraduate focused university in the Ivy League. And Stanford and MIT, although not Ivy League, are also notorious for not providing much support to their undergrads. Michigan may be a little worse than some, a little better than others, but by and large, it makes no difference. Students do not go to the Columbias and Michigans of the world so that they can be babied and taken care of. That's what LACs are for. Those who decide to attend a school like Cal or Harvard want a tough academic atmosphere that will develop their ability to become independent thinkers.</p>

<p>Anyway, good luck in your exams.</p>

94

<p>Yes... since SAT average scores are what makes a college how good it is (sigh). Just throw away that whole strength in academics.</p>

<p>Michigan has around 70% in-state students. I don't see how the in-state academics isn't carrying this university. And you're wrong to believe that all the in-state students are dumb, and bringing down the university. They make up the bulk of that SAT range.</p>

<p>At least they aren't dumb enough to be paying 40K per year for college at a place they don't want to be at.</p>

95

<p>Alright, I think it's time for a stalemate. I feel that I seem too negative about a university that I actually feel sad about leaving for every break, that I look forward to returning to every time and that I will look back upon with far more good memories than bad. I gave a very objective view of a place I love. I think it'll be more helpful prospectives to give a list of pros, cons and things to consider when you're applying to Mich:</p>

<p>Pros:</p>

<p>-Reputation. The Michigan name does hold a lot of cache in grad/professional school admissions and job markets. That 2003 WSJ article that mentioned that Mich is 30th in elite graduate school admissions took class size into account. If you compared sheer numbers, we'd be in the top 15, I believe. Michigan Law and U of M Med love U of M grads and both of these schools are top 7 and top 10, respectively.</p>

<p>-Rigor. Come here willing to work hard and you will get one hell of an education. Professors are extremely understanding about letting you sit in other lecture sections if your professor isn't cutting it for you and if you do the assigned readings and go to class (most of the time ;-)), you will leave immensely more knowledgeable in nearly every class at this school.</p>

<p>-Ann Arbor! Yes, it is the perfect college town. There is always a place to eat 24 hours a day that's actually tasty, there is so much in terms of arts and culture, the town has an incredibly laidback vibe and it's really safe. I haven't met any girls who feel unsafe walking home from the library at 2 am.</p>

<p>-Library System. Third best library system in the country. You really can find any book you want here. The music library is probably 1 of the top 2 non-conservatory libraries in the country and if you're a music buff, the collection makes you feel like Charlie Bucket in Willy Wonka's factory.</p>

<p>-Football. What's cool is that you don't have to like it but if you do like football, there is so much to like.</p>

<p>-Wonderful upper-level classes.</p>

<p>Cons:</p>

<p>-Poor advising. Make sure you start speaking to advisors in majors that you are interested in from freshmen year on. Many of these professors are very helpful and will try to help you navigate your way to the university.</p>

<p>-Yep, the classes are almost always huge.</p>

<p>-Intro classes really do suck here. Make sure you take your AP credit and don't let them talk you into doing otherwise.</p>

<p>-It's a large school. You will have to cut through red tape every time you want to do something slightly different. Make sure you have a game face.</p>

<p>-Registration. Too many kids for too few spots.</p>

<p>-Having to move off-campus by end of sophomore year. The housing rush in Ann Arbor is insane. Everything is expensive and people frequently fight for leases. It's really stressful.</p>

<p>-If you're pre-med or pre-business, they will try like hell to weed you out. When you take orgo or econ, take it really seriously.</p>

<p>What to remember:</p>

<p>-I would say that the Michigan experience is far less stressful if you arrive knowing exactly what you want out of college and with a few majors in mind. This is not a school for people to dabble around and be indecisive.</p>

<p>-Do not listen to your academic advisor, especially if you are in Honors. Do not let them push you around. Take the classes you want to.</p>

<p>-If you're doing Residential College, make sure you really love the humanities or you'll receive little support.</p>

<p>-Really consider what kind of social atmosphere you want before you pick a dorm or you will risk feeling socially alienated. One poster was right in saying to check out the residential communities. If you want the Animal House experience, pick Markley or Alice Lloyd. If you want the more studious, more academic college experience, do honors housing in South Quad. </p>

<p>Good luck to all of you in your decisions. I'm sure you'll be successful wherever you may be.</p>

96

<p>Wolves, either use some reading comprehension or don't jump in without knowing what you're talking about. We're not paying for it and that's why we're here. </p>

<p>Way to make a point. :-)</p>

97

<p>Michwoman, my daughter would agree with what you wrote about the pros and cons.</p>

<p>Get some rest.</p>

98

<p>I was speaking to the person who responded to my earlier message. This wasn't intended to you, or the general discussion going on. I've been in Ann Arbor for longer than 95% of the people on this message board, more than a decade than all of the current students. My parents have been in Ann Arbor for longer than all of your lives.</p>

<p>Yeah, I think I know what i'm talking about.</p>

99

<p>Much better MichWoman. I actually agree with all your pros and cons. One day, you will realize that the cons at Michigan are not endemic to Michigan, but to most great research universities. That does not mean we should accept the compromise. We should obviously hope that Michigan can rise above those current limitations. But for now, UI hope you grow to appreciate those pros...almost no university on Earth can provide you with those pros.</p>

<p>On a side note, I also love MIT. It is probably one of three or four universities in the nation I may pick over Michigan if I were given the chance. I also love Wellesley...but obviously for different reasons! hehe</p>

100

<p>My sister went to MIT...it's an amazing school Alexandre but the image has been kind of skewed. All of the professors are geniuses, leaders, at the forefronts of new research and innovations. However, this does NOT make them good teachers; you have to do most of the work yourself. Sure, there are a few good ones, but usually education consists of extremely different problem sets which you struggle through in groups. MIT is still my first choice though - it's the instititution that prepares you to excel in the engineering world.</p>