Is Michigan weak in any way?

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Michigan
1121

To clear a few things up…

“Clearly, you are not in the cohort for whom Michigan is choosing to meet full need. That’s their current policy.”

Actually not a Drip ? of Need… yes this is the policy we are talking about.

“I thought I would throw my two cents in and say that OOS tuition is outrageous, as it is at other schools like the UCs and UVA.”

UVA meets 100% of demonstrated need. They do toss in an institutional loan in doing so which is annoying whereas most schools make it a grant they do meet need for all cohorts.

“So lots of schools price people out of attending. If you can’t send your child to whatever school then pick one that is within your financial means.”

I agree :point_up: but many apply not knowing the policy as it’s not as obvious as the policies they advertise where they do meet need like Go Blue. I will go one step further and say that the cohort D18 is in where she is offered to attend is $15,000 to $18,000 greater than many equally elite schools. So it feels as though we would be being used to supplement the Go Blue Program.

Actually it came as a relief as we all concluded besides being reduculously high priced when compared to all other options it was too cold, too far and in the middle of nowhere.

I still think it’s an important topic for those who didn’t see it coming as it’s not as obvious as some might argue. It’s more for those who might otherwise be blindsided next time. Some argue it was obvious that there is a clear cut cohort that UofM does not meet any need based aid for. I would suggest it is not so obvious.

If I say UofM is $15,000 to $18,000 more than most other schools for said cohort that offered 100% of need, others counter that they do offer aid to different cohorts as if It’s not true.

The problem is it affected many decisions and came as a big surprise to many. D18 laughed and said what are they crazy. So it’s not about our decision or needing to make a decision.

It’s about sharing with those who embark on the same journey down mystery lane. Just shedding some light on a less than obvious “weakness” so others dig deeper as it applies to them. In the very least so they are less surprised if the budget remains unchanged.

It’s a laugh as we just received a letter yesterday reminding us of an information package and describing how that package would help us make UofM more affordable.

That ranks up there with the last letter of sincerity where they addressed it to

{{ applicants name here }}

Must be how they decided to address that certain cohort. Nice…

Nice Closing Thought Huh…

1122

sbdad, your definition of elite is very superficial.

1123

Here’s a new thread here on CC where a student received a better financial package from UMich than she did from UVa:

http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/2140745-urgent-help-on-umich-vs-uva-for-social-sciences.html#latest

1124

I really don’t understand but understand what you are saying. Michigan at first made a mistake on our information sent. Once they redid it we got some help. Same happened to my brother in law for his daughter at Michigan State. They put down he made $700,000 vs his $70,000 salary.

We personally made an Excell spreadsheet for all our schools with like everything on it including scholarships, merit potential, costs, room /board etc. Nothing was a surprise to us. But we also know many people who have gone to Michigan from our area so we already knew OOS merit is like non existent. But we did our homework also.

Yes, Michigan has to do somethings better, no question. But people from my area, who many parents are alumni just don’t feel the same way. They are just happy their kid got in. We and many we know have 529 accounts started when the kids were young for this exact moment in time. Without them it would be very difficult to manage two OOS kids payments.

My daughters 1400 student private college cost like $63,000 OOS but luckily she got a $30,000 merit when she transferred there.

Colleges are expensive, no doubt and it sucks cutting the checks monthly.

1125

I’ve watched the UCLA and Cal decision threads. There are plenty of kids with lesser SAT/ACT scores and GPA’s being accepted. OTOH, I’ve also watched the UMich decision threads and there are plenty of “yield protection” complaints.

1126

Michigan is almost 50 percent OOS enrollment right now. Name me another “elite” public university that is even close to that ratio.

1127

Move to Michigan! Get instate rates! Stop complaining! Seriously, the same people who complain about OOS costs are the ones who would never live/move back to this state. Taxpayers in Michigan could care less that you are paying full freight.

1128

“My kid has a decent shot at getting in to Michigan, but she’s not even bothering applying to Berkeley, UCLA, or UVA. Her target schools are now UCSB, Cal Poly SLO, Wisconsin, etc. Probably as difficult to get into UCSB or even Davis”

That may be true of students at your child’s school, and I appreciate that, but the “eliteness” of a university has nothing to do with (1) exclusivity and (2) your own school’s Naviance data. Elite status is granted to universities that have the best academic offerings. Top ranked departments across all academic fields (Michigan is ranked among the top 15 in every single field of study), individualized programs, placement into top graduate programs and placement in high numbers into firms such as McKinsey, Google and Goldman Sachs, and an alumni network that is influential, loyal and geographically dispersed. Michigan checks all the boxes in ways that only a dozen or so universities in the US do. Do not kid yourself.

But even if you look at raw data, Michigan holds its own against Cal, UCLA, UVa and is slightly more selective than UC Davis and UCSB. I threw a couple of Ivies in there for comparison’s sake. As you can see, even the Ivies, which use ED to lock in high stat applicants and superscore the ACT barely edge out Michigan.

SAT MID 50% RANGE, MATH (mid point)
Brown 720-790 (755)
Dartmouth 720-790 (755)
Cornell 710-790 (750)
Michigan 670-780 (725)
Berkeley 660-790 (725)
UVa 670-770 (720)
UCLA 630-780 (705)
UCSB 610-770 (690)
UC Davis 580-740 (660)

SAT MID 50% RANGE, ENGLISH (mid point)
Dartmouth 700-770 (735)
Brown 700-760 (730)
Cornell 680-750 (715)
Michigan 660-730 (695)
UVa 660-730 (695)
Berkeley 640-740 (690)
UCLA 640-740 (690)
UCSB 620-710 (665)
UC Davis 570-670 (620)

ACT MID 50% RANGE (mid point)
Brown 32-35 (33.5)
Cornell 32-34 (33)
Dartmouth 31-35 (33)
Michigan 30-34 (32)
UVa 30-34 (32)
Berkeley (28-34 (31)
UCLA 28-34 (31)
UCSB 26-32 (29)
UC Davis 25-31 (28)

If your daughter has given up on Cal, UCLA and UVa, perhaps she should give up on Michigan as well.

But like I said, selectivity and eliteness are not directly correlated. Eliteness is a function of societal standing. Michigan is at the top of the food chain in every respect, from its standing in academe, to the placement of its graduates in exclusive companies, to the influence and affluence of its alumni.

1129

Yes UoM seems to offer need baised aid to low income groups. Without knowing the specific details both do and it’s an individual specific matter full of liquid space and gray matter…

My point has and is where there is less, little or none at UofM vrs colleges that meet 100% of Need Based Aid for those $100,000 plus is a difference that the specific affected cohort needs to be aware of, look at and consider most in deciding to apply and expectations should they be accepted.

1130

Focus on the Outputs:

I like what Forbes has to say about what it looks at in ranking colleges…

“The Forbes list is notable also for the things it doesn’t measure, like SAT scores and acceptance rates, statistics we call “inputs.” We think students are more interested in “outputs.””

Look up Forbes

Top Colleges 2018: The Methodology

…”While other lists consider acceptance rates and admitted students’ SAT scores, we look at alumni salaries, debt after graduation, retention and graduation rates, debt load upon graduation, alumni salaries and signs of individual success including academic and career accolades”…

So while holistically deciding on a college take into consideration the outputs. The raw inputs are full of anxiety and are far less meaningful in the end.

Unless it satisfies some data point ego need…

1131

@J123D123

FWIW, it’s “meets 100% of demonstrated financial need.” Not “meets 100% of need based aid.” You can’t meet need-based aid. The college meets demonstrated financial need WITH aid. Also, be aware that every college has a different formula. Just because UVA is $15k to $18k less FOR YOU does not mean that other families will get the same result. It depends on the specifics of the formulas and how those formulas apply to each family’s personal situation. Also, I’m assuming that you are talking about the result of the NPCs for these schools since your daughter has not even applied yet (or appealed a FA package).

1132

My kid received a 33 on the ACT, with a 34 on both Math and English sections. She will likely take it again in September to see if she can do a bit better. She has a 4.2 GPA, and will have completed 7 or 8 APs by the time she graduates. Starting on varsity lacrosse on a Top 20 nationwide team. Internship with a state senator. Likely Poli Sci or Econ major. I think she has a decent shot at Michigan, but compared to other kids out here, likely not at UCLA or UCB.

Speaking of, here is an example of a waitlisted kid at Berkeley (from last year): http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/discussion/comment/21573241/#Comment_21573241

4.5 GPA and 36 ACT/1540 SAT. Chem Engineering applicant. Again, this is someone that was waitlisted. Not sure of their ECs, but I would doubt they would get waitlisted at Michigan.

I have no issue with her going to UCSB, Cal Poly, UC Davis, Wisconsin, UDub, or even SDSU Honors. I do have an issue with her taking on undergraduate debt which will hang around her neck. Even if her degree says Michigan at the rate of $280K for four years. While I had a good experience there, it didn’t change my life or job prospects. My MBA at another B1G school means as much to me.

An earlier poster mentioned placement in graduate programs and McKinsey, Goldman and Google which I’d assume would mean a higher salary. You know which school has a higher average salary? https://www.payscale.com/research/US/School=California_Maritime_Academy/Salary

$85K. And cost of attendance is nearly 50% of Michigan.

1133

“4.5 GPA and 36 ACT/1540 SAT. Chem Engineering applicant. Again, this is someone that is waitlisted. Not sure of their ECs, but I would doubt they would get waitlisted at Michigan.”

sbdad12, you are basing your entire case on a dozen cases reported by strangers on CC. The fact of the matter is, Michigan is as selective as Cal and UCLA. They have slightly lower acceptance rates, but their applicant pool is not as consistently stellar. Average test scores and cumulative high school GPA are almost identical at all three universities.

Your daughter has a strong profile and should apply to at least 7-10 reaches, including the UCs, Michigan and private elites like Duke and Johns Hopkins.

1134

By the way sbdad12, take a look at some of the deferred students on this thread. Like the applicant in posts #202, 208 and 222.

http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/university-michigan-ann-arbor/2117016-university-of-michigan-class-of-2023-regular-decision-p14.html

http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/university-michigan-ann-arbor/2117016-university-of-michigan-class-of-2023-regular-decision-p15.html

Like I said, it is not possible to determine one chances of admission into an elite university like Michigan based on dozens or even hundreds of isolated cases. Michigan receives 70,000 applications. Most of those applicants are qualified. Only 15,000 are going to be admitted.

1135

Thanks Alexandre. I would politely disagree. My daughter’s high school college admissions counselor is a reader on the UCLA admissions committee. She knows what they look for, and also Berkeley, but she is realistic in telling us that her chances aren’t great (less than 20%). It’s great to have her on our side for applying to the UCs. My D will apply ED to Michigan and Wisconsin. But I don’t share your optimism that she has a good chance at Duke or Hopkins.

FWIW, she doesn’t think that an undergraduate degree opens a ton of doors wherever you go and I would tend to agree. Graduate school and work experience have more impact on the job you get than undergrad.

Speaking of, and this is going back 25 years…when I was finishing my MBA program, I was one of the last in my class to get employment after school and I interview pretty well. My Michigan degree didn’t open doors, but it might have helped me get a fellowship that was worth $$$. The first person to get a job was a woman who graduated from…Washington State. There were others that graduated from “lesser” schools (Augustana, Lawrence U, Wisconsin Oshkosh, etc.) than Michigan that for a variety of reasons got hired before me. But in the end, it all worked out, and I’ve had a good career run in tech. My own experience taught me that an undergrad degree from an “elite” school doesn’t do it all for you.

1136

?

I’m sorry yes but the point is still the same.

UVA meets 100% Demonstrated Need. UofM does Not for a certain set of specific factors. You can try and reduce the point. It’s still the same point.

Bottom Line UVA is $15,000 less for D18 than the University of Michigan after the Aid Package at UVA as compaired to that of UofM.

It’s real dollars. Not NPC dollars which are not a promise.

1137

Sndad12: Here is someone who recently got waitlisted at Michigan:

Waitlisted from COE.
35 ACT
3.86 UW
lots of ec’s, mainly FIRST robotics for 4 years
my essays and interview showed a lot of enthusiasm for the school which is probably why I didn’t get rejected even w my bad gpa

His/her “bad” gpa was unweighted. He/she probably was way over a 4.0 weighted, just like your daughter.
.

1138

“Speaking of, and this is going back 25 years…when I was finishing my MBA program, I was one of the last in my class to get employment after school and I interview pretty well. My Michigan degree didn’t open doors…“

25 years ago is ancient history compared with admissions today. You stated that you got your MBA from another B1G school, which is probably the reason why your UG degree didn’t open doors. Times have changed. Tbh, you probably would not be accepted to Michigan today with the grades/scores you had back then. The average students at the top schools have improved considerably since you attended.

1139

There are well qualified high stats instate students that don’t get admitted to places like University of Michigan and UVA, let alone OOS students . Tens of thousands of applicants for limited spots. Many more OOS applicants at UVA than instate. Lots of OOS legacy applicants at both schools. There are going to be complaints about cost and not getting admitted. Instate options or community college remain the most cost effective and common options for most families considering college. Look for merit aid or shoot for the very top need based schools if your high stats kids do not like their instate options.

I think these schools, and other top publics, are charging OOS students what the market will bear. I’m more concerned about the rising costs for many people for their instate schools. Most of these top publics are still less costly than the top privates .

1140

Pulled from the UMich Class of 2023 Deferred thread. Going to Cal, waiting on Cal. Folks, I can play this game all day long. I can find 36 ACT’s and 1,570+ SAT’s being deferred, waitlisted, and or rejected at UMich too.