Is need blind admission fair?

Parents Forum
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<p>I don't think so! We make enough that we'll have to pay full freight but we are most certainly not rich. Still both working hard, saving for retirement, trying to pay off the mortgage (which wasn't extravagant to begin with), trying to raise kids and still eat out once a week, drive older cars, and about every other year have a one-week vacation. How did we get in this supposedly enviable position? Really, really hard work. No Ivy pedigrees, just state U backgrounds. Certainly no inheritance to speak of. Yet nonetheless we find ourselves lumped in with the hedge fund managers! Can we pay private college tuition? Yes, but with considerable pain and huge temptation to have our kids who are very strong academically take merit scholarships at lower prestige schools so that some day we can still help them with graduate school and maybe even leave them a little something when we're gone. Here's what I think is unfair -- parents I know who quit college before us and didn't put up with the poverty of grad school, went into obviously low income fields, and maybe hurried home every night to coach teams while we worked, or maybe kept mom home for the kids -- they are now in the very enviable position of having their kids not having to consider college cost at all. AT ALL. That means even if they're profile is less strong than my kids, they will be more likely to apply to elite schools than my kids. Is something wrong here? Yeah. On the flip side, the kids of the truly rich have, of course, no need to fret the tuition. They have real wealth! They have "money in their family." By sending my kids to school with their kids, my kids will certainly never "have money in their family." Their money will go to HYP.</p>

<p>I think if colleges are going to claim to be "Need Blind" and they have enormous endowments then EVERY admitted kid should go free. Otherwise, they are going to end up with truly rich kids and truly poor kids and only the kids of parents with questionable sanity in between. JMHO.</p>

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<p>Feel better now?:) I am sure many parents feel like you do. You are a good parent for having worked so hard, and your kids will see you as a role model. No, it's not fair, but "it is what it is."</p>

3

<p>Many people who are in a similar position to yours offer their kids a choice of a state school with help toward graduate school tuition later on OR a private college/university now. Personally, I would not be concerned with leaving them a something when I'm gone at this point. With a solid education (state or private) combined with motivation, your kids should do well for themselves. It sounds like you are trying to do it all. </p>

<p>Don't forget about your own retirement. </p>

<p>And there are plenty of kids who take merit scholarships at "lesser" schools who wind up very happy AND successful. There are a lot of schools out there besides HYP. Take a breath!</p>

<p>As an aside, when you have two in school at one time, it is likely that you will get some aid. How far apart are your children?</p>

4

<p>Unfortunately, most states charge the same percent of income tax to everyone who earns more than $75,000.</p>

<p>Many people are unpleasantly surprised that a school considers them among the 'wealthy'. It is unfortunate.</p>

<p>I hope you and your children are getting the bang for you buck. Best of luck!</p>

5

<p>mammall -- I think you are confusing the concepts of (1) Need blind admissions and (2) Meeting 100% of demonstrated need.</p>

<p>The first means that all applicants will be considered equally for admission regardless of their ability to pay.</p>

<p>The second means that once a student is admitted, the school claims to provide sufficent financial aid to make it possible for the student to attend.</p>

<p>Many schools claim both of these policies, but they are not the same. A school that is not Need Blind won't admit a worthy student who can't pay. A school that does not meet 100% of need may well admit a poor students but will expect them to somehow scratch up some or all of the money.</p>

<p>Need blind is generally a Good Thing. Meeting 100% of need is theoretically a good thing too, but if often breaks down over differing opinions between the parents and the school over what the family can afford to pay. Also, they often meet the need with heavy loans and only light grants.</p>

<p>BTW, we are in the same situation as you - worked hard and lived modestly and thus have little or no "demonstrated need." However, I'm grateful that selective schools, theoretically at least, will admit (or not) my kids without checking my bank account first.</p>

6

<p>Well, our family does have demonstrated need, but none of the schools that accepted my daughter gave us anywhere near the amount of money she would need to attend. She will be starting this month at a state school that gave her a generous merit scholarship, for which we are very happy and grateful. </p>

<p>So don't feel that anyone with need has an easy time of it. Too often these days, colleges hand out loans to meet need, which is just insane IMHO.</p>

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<p>"Here's what I think is unfair -- parents I know who quit college before us and didn't put up with the poverty of grad school, went into obviously low income fields, and maybe hurried home every night to coach teams while we worked, or maybe kept mom home for the kids"</p>

<p>You could be referring to my husband and me with that comment. But our perspective is a little different. My husband made it possible for many kids to do after school sports and activities, even those (especially those) whose parents were never available to drive, do concessions, help umpire, be the assistent scout leader, or keep score (he volunteered in baseball and in scouting). Our house was the "place to play" after school. Our garage was the cub scout den. Our backyard was safe for all the neighborhood kids to let loose while their harried moms and dads were unwinding after a hard day at work. I taught kids how to play the piano (for a little $, admittedly) but far more of my time was spent accompanying every church and school chorus that asked, volunteering as a class mom, scout charter chairman, going from one end of the state to the other VOLUNTEERING (no pay) to accompany soloists for S&E at our school, doing the music for all those summer church kiddie camps... </p>

<p>We also saved money to send our two kids on to college- they are going to a very good state university and love it. Don't think about the perceived inequaties in life too hard, or you will be absolutely miserable inside and out.</p>

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<p>What fantastic feedback. It really helps me. I'm not always angry. Just now and then. Thank you, everyone. Not sure how we'll respond to the stituation. It's so weird to have the incredible competition to get into the elite schools, then if your kids are "lucky" enough to get in, the astounding cost. I'll get used to this insane situation but it's going to take time. And I do think parents should make more noise about it. All the outrage over healthcare costs (and jutifiable) but where is the ongoing national front burner debate on college costs?</p>

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<p>It can be frustrating to think that you are being penalized for saving and working hard, but that thinking will not get you anywhere. Be proud of the fact that you have worked hard and can send your children to college. Be proud that they have seen your work ethic and know that you sacrificed. </p>

<p>I recently found out that one of my d's best friends got great financial aid at
our local state school. I know that she has worked hard since she could hold a job and that she could not attend college without this aid no matter how much her parents tried. It made me very happy for her and I am glad that aid is available to those who really need it.</p>

<p>I still don't like the high, high cost of college these days, but I am grateful that I can sacrifice and give it to my kids.
Good luck and know that there are many in your shoes.</p>

10

<p>Actually, in many states the cost of public education is still quite reasonable for middle-class families -- which is why you may not see the outrage. MOST students still attend their local community colleges and state universities, where a subsidized education available for everyone. </p>

<p>My daughter is at an elite private college, where we have our financial need met - which still means about $20K annually out of pocket for us, in addition to loans and work study that require my daughter to work part-time through school and will leave her about $20K in debt at graduation. (I'm a single parent who earns ~$50K annually to give you some context as to what need-based aid means). </p>

<p>However, my son is at an in-state public, where tuition is about $3500 per year -- he has been selected for an internship (all expenses paid + stipend for a semester) that is equal or better for his major than anything he could have gotten at an Ivy League. There are great opportunities at many schools -- if you look beyond the hype. </p>

<p>I don't doubt that my daughter is receiving a better quality of education at her school, but my son has made the most of his opportunities and will probably emerge debt-free.</p>

<p>I do think that private colleges are far too expensive, but every parent in this country has the freedom to vote with their pocket books. I think that the priorities on a government level should be to continue to fund and improve the quality of public education and to work to keep those colleges affordable. I am not angry at my daughter's private college for charging so much money - I figure that private education is a choice, and if it is too expensive, we don't have to choose it. However, I am saddened to see some of my son's favorite profs being laid off because of lack of money to continue to fund their departments at his public college.</p>

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<p>I say to not worry about it. There are lots of things that others can afford or might be entitled to that you (or I) might have a struggle paying for or not qualify for.</p>

<p>Remember that a lot of the financial aid is in the form of loans that need to be paid back later. You might have enough assets that you could obtain loans in the same amount and might therefore end up in a similar position to those who do receive financial aid.</p>

<p>There have been lots of threads on this subject but there really are lots of options. Firstly, HYPS and others are privates and should be able to charge whatever the market will bear. Secondly, there's no compelling 'need' to attend just those top private Universities. There are plenty of top-ranked public Unis and plenty of perfectly capable lower-ranked publics and privates. Paying huge amounts of money for a private school doesn't necessarily provide a better education than a much less expensive option.</p>

12

<p>And...
it's all relative.</p>

<p>My son's friend qualifies for every need based scholarship that comes along. She goes to the same state U as he, with no out of pocket for anything (she applies for every need based scholarship on the web, it seems, and she gets them). Anyway, she drives a two year old (which is brand new in my book, for a kid) vehicle, belongs to a sorority, lives in a to-die-for apartment complex (weight room, spa, pool, party facility, etc...)
Does this peeve me? yee...eee...aaa..ahhh... a little bit.<br>
Don't let them get to you. It will do you in.</p>

13

<p>
[quote]
Paying huge amounts of money for a private school doesn't necessarily provide a better education than a much less expensive option.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That's certainly true. The UCs, for example, are affordable full-service universities where most students can meet their goals. The junior colleges are even cheaper and boast open admissions. BUT, as we've all agreed I think, a good "match" involves more than just courses offered. The living and learning environment at a major public university might not be a healthy choice for a timid introvert. Or a kid who is ultrasensitive to his environment. Or somebody with physical challenges that make it hard just to get around.</p>

<p>We're as grateful as can be that D's need-blind LAC took her in, meets our financial need, and provides a healthy environment in which she thrives.</p>

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<p>Ok then start conserving money better, don't save for retirement, and don't take vacations. Low-income families do this and less</p>

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<p>
[quote]
a good "match" involves more than just courses offered

[/quote]
But its still a matter of affordability, and there is a difference between "need" and "want" whether shopping for a college or car or a seat on a cross-country flight. (i.e., I feel just as cramped and uncomfortable flying on a cheap Jet Blue seat as anyone else -- its not that I have shorter legs than the First Class flyers on other airlines, I just have less money). </p>

<p>Obviously we all would like to be able to provide our children with the ideal college environment, but I think there is a risk when we lose sight of the ability to sort preferences & desires from basic requirements, especially in the context of an overly hyped college admissions system.</p>

<p>My daughter's Ivy-affiliated college offers a better education than my son's CSU. Having seen both, I am satisfied that it is worth paying $10K more for. It would NOT be worth paying $30K more -- but that is the difference in tuitions between the two schools. Another family might see it differently, but the truth is that my son has had many profs at the CSU who are smart and whom he likes -- and my daughter has aired her share of complaints at the elite private. My son's classes overall are smaller at the public college than hers are, in general, at the private college. </p>

<p>The point is: neither environment is perfect. All the classes are still taught by human beings with an array of personalities and communication skills. There is a difference between the quality of the schools at the top and the schools farther down the list, but the difference is NOT nearly as big as the tuition differential. A lot of what is being sold at in Ivy League tuitions is still the designer label. </p>

<p>And the best "fit" colleges often are NOT the most prestigious in any case. Students looking for match & fit would do well to delve deeply, as some may find that the schools that are truly the best fit for them are also the ones likely to offer them significant merit aid.</p>

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<p>One school that is taking the tuition-free approach is Olin in MA.</p>

<p>To me, the BIG question is, if a student's parents are not able to pay full freight, because of:
poor choices
bad luck
inability/low income professions
poor health
or whatever</p>

<p>do we, as a society, want the KID to pay the penalty?</p>

<p>Is all of this fair to each family? No. Does it benefit society at large? That's the question.</p>

<p>One advantage the OP's children have is that, once accepted, the offspring can attend the school of his/her choice. What a fabulous gift to give to their children. Not the case for all.</p>

<p>In our Son's case, we were willing and able to pay for out "flagship" state U, which, fortunately, as it is U of Mich, it is a very well-respected university in its own right. He was accepted there, with wonderful merit money. As it happened, another well-respected school, which was his Dream School, also accepted him, and through need-based aid, made it possible for him to attend.</p>

<p>He did benefit from need-blind admission and generous FA.</p>

<p>I hope the school will decide that its investment in his education was worthwhile. </p>

<p>So we are somewhere in the middle. And our son is doing "better" by some yardsticks than he could have if he were depending solely on our income. I think one of the benefits to society at large is that the classes of the most expensive schools are not populated solely by the offspring of well-to-do parents (yes, I know, there are exceptions, and you are one of them)</p>

<p>BTW: H is in an art-related field (= not big bucks) and we had a plethora medical bills. It's not always about using money that could have gone to education to spend weeks in the Caribbean.</p>

<p>Nonetheless, I freely and gratefully acknowledge that our S has benefited from a combination of his hard work, good luck, and generous policies.</p>

17

<p>Don't hate those Downwardly Mobile folks. They may just be the glue behind our prosperity.</p>

<p>Americans are fixated on upward mobility. It's bred into our bones--but a new book is coming out that suggests that Downward Mobility is the key to sustaining economic prosperity. The book is A Farewell to Alms by Gregory Clark .</p>

<p>
[quote]
Gregory Clark, an economic historian at the University of California, Davis, believes that the Industrial Revolution — the surge in economic growth that occurred first in England around 1800 — occurred because of a change in the nature of the human population. The change was one in which people gradually developed the strange new behaviors required to make a modern economy work. The middle-class values of nonviolence, literacy, long working hours and a willingness to save emerged only recently in human history, Dr. Clark argues.
.

[/quote]
<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/07/science/07indu.html?pagewanted=1&ei=5070&en=a700be10040f0414&ex=1187323200%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/07/science/07indu.html?pagewanted=1&ei=5070&en=a700be10040f0414&ex=1187323200&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I love this theory. I think it has all sorts of wonderful, tangential possiblities regarding equal opportunity, education and even affirmative action. Not to mention rich philisophical potent.</p>

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<p>It sounds sort of elitist to me (just my opinion, I'm not a philosopher or anthropologist).</p>

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<p>I have often wondered just what does go on in admissions offices(but, don't we all?). I wonder when the statement need-blind is on the admissions app and then the admissions officers begin reading the app and notice the employment/highest level of education of parents, do they then assume that no need is "needed'? It doesn't take a genius to put 2 and 2 together and figure out that if parents hold fairly respectable jobs and have higher level education degrees, then likely student will not need financial aid. But, this is assuming of course, that admissions officers see that portion of the app. I just don't know if the need-blind admissions thing really exists! A college cannot take a class full of students needing financial aid--there have to be some full pays, no matter how large of an endowment the school has.</p>

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<p>Financial Aid offices look through the financial information of applicants. The majority of applicants will not be eligible for grants from the university. More kids pay full cost out of pocket (whether through loans or those who are lucky enough to have the money).</p>

<p>Most schools are need blind. But those that are not would hold their poorest applicants to higher stands (ie if we can only afford to have 10 kids on full tuition, we have to take the best 10 who qualify).</p>