Is New Haven a bad area??

Colleges and Universities A-Z Yale University
61

<p>Some interesting statistics, 2006 from CNNMoney.com</p>

<p>How does New Haven compare to the Best Places to Live (averages) in the US:</p>

<p>Median family income (per year) $39,412 ................... Best places to live: $76,893
Family purchasing power $35, 252 .........................: $68,109
(annual, cost-of-living adjusted)<br>
Air quality index 58.6% ..........................: 71.9%
(% of days AQI ranked as good)<br>
Personal crime risk 324 ..........................: 45
(100 is nat'l average; lower is better)
Property crime risk 256 ..........................: 74
(100 is nat'l average; lower is better)
Personal crime incidents 275 ...........................: 228
(per 100,000)<br>
Property crime incidents 2,227 ...........................: 3,105
(per 100,000)</p>

<p>The personal crime risk is over 3x the national average and way higher than a "best places to live". Property crime risk is over 2.5 times the national average and also way higher than the "best places" averages. </p>

<p>Interesting to see how the "risk" is much higher than the reported incidents.</p>

62

<p>MovieBuff, the statistics you cite are completely and utterly irrelevant for comparison purposes because New Haven has a uniquely small land area defined to be a part of its central municipality. The city was founded in 1638, so is one of the oldest European-settled cities in North America, and as a result, areas that are immediately adjacent to the city center are considered to be separate towns/cities, even when in reality they are not. Another way to look at it is that the municipality of New Haven covers only a few square miles, so a measure like yours is counting mostly college students and people living in older housing in the center (i.e., a lot of immigrants), whereas most American cities cover much larger areas over hundreds if not thousands of square miles (so statistically include mostly suburban areas and smaller proportions of students and immigrants, and obviously are not as densely settled). In other words, the only valid way to compare cities on the basis of US Census-defined urban areas (MSAs) - that's how the BEA and everyone else always compares them, because otherwise you are really comparing nothing that is meaningful. When you make a legitimate comparison with other cities, New Haven always shows up as one of the wealthiest and safest cities in the United States.</p>

<p>Newenglandparent, good post. It's interesting to hear the perspective of someone who has been there for a long time. Also, regarding homeless people, I think that it is important to remember that they generally congregate in the safest areas. The vast majority of homeless people come from suburban and rural areas originally, and have decided (or are unable to decide) not to seek help in the form of assisted housing, etc. They have decided to move to the center of cities because it is the only place that they can be safe. </p>

<p>Think about it, if you were a homeless person in the suburbs or some small town somewhere, you would be open to local kids attacking you, rednecks taking potshots at you, etc. You wouldn't fit in, and you would seriously suffer as a result. People in the suburbs wouldn't want you around because you would be lowering their property values, and as a result, you would be attacked. Pretty much every day until you finally left or were given a one-way police car ride to a nearby city by one of the local cops. You also wouldn't want to go to a high-crime neighborhood on the outskirts of town -- you would want to be where other people are. When there are other people around (as there are in vibrant, cutting-edge downtown areas like Downtown New Haven and Greenwich Village), then you are generally pretty safe. Bottom line, that is why homeless people concentrate in the areas considered to be safe urban areas -- places like Harvard Square, Downtown New Haven, Times Square, or Fanueil Hall in Boston, and not relatively boring, isolated places like Ithaca, Morningside Heights, Providence, West Philadelphia, small towns or the suburbs where they simply are not going to be safe. The problem is that that means that a non-homeless person probably isn't going to be very safe, either, unless they are huddled inside their car or house and sticking on their own property. But that's the story of the suburbs and other mediocre communities, and the reasons why vibrant urban places like Central Paris, Downtown Manhattan, the Chicago Loop, Downtown New Haven, Ann Arbor, Madison, Downtown Seattle, London, Rome, Prague, Milan, Northampton, and Downtown Boston are considered to be so desirable as places to live. </p>

<p>The other reason, as I said above, of course is that the greatest risk comes from driving. You are 100-200 times more likely to die in a random car crash than in any kind of random urban violence, unless you are a drug dealer or something. That being the case, cities (even incredibly dangerous ones like Baltimore) are actually "safer", statistically, than virtually anywhere else. It doesn't mean you shouldn't use street smarts, but it means that if you do, you'll be much better off in a city than you will anywhere else. Excepting, sadly, the threat of a major terrorist attack like 9/11 or worse.</p>

63

<p>
[quote]
Someone is bitter about these two schools. Rejected.....many, many years ago, perhaps?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Humor can sometimes be lost in transmission. The point was that the nightmarish visions of Columbia students bitten by rats that "infest" the subway, or Harvard students being target practice for speeding cars, are absurd to the point of being comical. Columbia and Harvard are both in desirable locations compared to New Haven, though not exactly in "college towns" (which New Haven isn't, either).</p>

<p>edit: if you find the last sentence surprising, see the following thread for comments on whether or not Cambridge qualifies as a college town: </p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?p=4629695#post4629695%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?p=4629695#post4629695&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

64

<p>posterx, I never expected you to agree. The statistics are very relevant because they take into account the population. Money magazine had a very extensive analysis of them.</p>

<p>It seems that the risk is very high for Personal Crime and Property Crime when you look at the National averages per 100, 000 thousand.</p>

65

<p>The site for office of postsecondary education has comparative crime statistics. You can look up each school by the campus area and city. </p>

<p><a href="http://ope.ed.gov/security/Search.asp%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://ope.ed.gov/security/Search.asp&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>You will be a bit surprised by some of the results, with Yale showing less than expected numbers. However, I am not sure how to interpret the results. I will leave that to others.</p>

<p>But I think this is a useful link.</p>

<p>My personal comment is that I currently live in Berkeley CA and you would be suprised by the number of crimes around the campus, though it is not generally seen as a risky place.</p>

66

<p>MovieBuff, I don't think you understand my point. It is that cities aren't comparable in the way that your analyses compare them, because they do not take into account city sizes in the way that the U.S. Census / Bureau of Economic Analysis would by using MSA figures (standard urban area figures). Comparing cities just using the municipal boundaries, like in the stats you posted, isn't possible because, due to historical reasons, certain municipalities include just the central core area of a few square miles (which might very well be a population of mostly college students, immigrants, and a few wealthy urban loft dwellers, and reporting a higher incidence of crime "per person" because there are always 20x more people around, mostly living outside of the tiny artificial boundaries of that municipality and therefore not counted in the denominator, spending most of their time when they are not sleeping at all the cultural institutions, office skyscrapers, bars and restaurants in the center) whereas other municipalities include within their boundaries wide geographical swaths of the region including the core, close-in suburbs, and faraway suburbs (thereby including the college students, immigrants as well as hundreds of thousands of middle-class suburban families and farmers at the outskirts, and showing a statistically lower crime rate because you are comparing the crime at the center where everyone is spending all their time to an immense, partially-rural area of hundreds or thousands of square miles). </p>

<p>MSA/urban area figures ignore the completely artificial municipal boundaries, which were probably drawn hundreds of years ago, and focus instead on the city in terms of where people actually spend their time, i.e., where they are living versus where they are working. This defines each city based on what part is actually the "city" where people live and work. That's why you have to use them to compare cities, and not the "CNNMoney" stuff that only looks at municipality figures. If you use the urban area figures, again, New Haven is not just one of the safest but also in fact one of the richest cities in the United States. That probably explains why there are hundreds of restaurants in the city center around Yale, some charging upwards of $80 per person and regularly (i.e., every day) drawing crowds of patrons who drive there from places as far away as New York City, Western Massachusetts and Rhode Island.</p>

<p>Siserune, if Downtown New Haven doesn't qualify as a college town then nowhere does. There are at least 50,000 college students in the immediate area other than the Yalies who live right in the center of it all, and the blocks immediately around Yale are where they all go to hang out, go to cafes and restaurants, shop and party. Every weekend, entire streets have to be closed off because there are so many pedestrians out that they can't fit on the sidewalks. Perhaps it didn't used to be such a great college town, but there are now literally hundreds of restaurants within a few block radius of Yale -- more than within a few blocks of every single other Ivy League college, combined. There are also dozens of cafes, nightclubs, lounges, bars, cineplexes, theaters, bookstores, boutiques and the like. The only rivals to Yale in terms of having an incredibly vibrant surrounding college town are UW-Madison, UT-Austin, Michigan, Colorado and possibly NYU (which is in a very large city so doesn't really count, because the kids get sucked far away from campus for entertainment).</p>

67

<p>If we're talking about the safety of college students, crime statistics for the whole city are not really all that relevant. The relevant question is how safe the campus and surrounding area is--that's where the students will be the vast majority of the time. By that measure, Yale, Columbia, Harvard, and Penn are all safe--safety is no reason to decide not to go to any of these schools.</p>

<p>Personal note: a few years ago we drove through Princeton to let my kids get a look at it. We were on Nassau Street right across from the campus, when a carjacking took place right in front of us--the lady jumped out of the car screaming, the car zoomed off, other cars tried to block it, etc. Since then, my kids have been convinced that Princeton is dangerous and crime-ridden.</p>

68

<p>Personal note: In college, I like to get out of my "ivy" tower and be part of the city and what it offers. I do no like the restricted feeling of having to be confined to a specific school campus, because of safety issues. This is even more relevant in small towns like Hanover, Durhman, Gainesville, Princeton and......New Haven.</p>

69

<p>
[quote]
This is even more relevant in small towns like Hanover, Durhman, Gainesville, Princeton and......New Haven.

[/quote]

New Haven (population 124,000, metro area 600,000), Gainesville (population 108,143) and Durham (population 204,845) are small towns on the order of Hanover (population 10,850) and Princeton (population 30,000)? I wouldn't really say that the first three I listed are in any way in the same category as the latter two. There is really no way you can call New Haven a "small town." And if Durham, with over 200,000 people, is a "small town," then Providence, Rhode Island (with a population around 175,000) is as well.
Regardless, there is far more to do in the relatively safe area around Yale than in the entire towns of Princeton and Hanover. And if your definition of leaving the "ivy tower" is venturing out into rich, white, well-educated suburbs with nothing going on, I don't see what you actually gain from it.
Look, New Haven is not what posterX seems to think it is, but his claims are far more reasonable than those of MovieBuff, who seems to have some sort of vendetta against the city. In my opinion it strikes a nice balance between a town like Princeton where there is virtually nothing to do off campus and a city like New York, where college campuses can become dead because almost everyone is doing something off-campus. And to make MovieBuff feel better, Providence probably falls in this good-balance category as well.</p>

70

<p>Good post, svalbardlutefisk.</p>

71

<p>I think it's certainly true that at some schools you are more likely to stay on campus more than at other schools--and that is largely a function of what the local community has to offer. I think it's true (at least it used to be a couple of decades ago) that Yale was a school with a very rich campus life, partly for this reason. There were lots of on-campus movies, plays, concerts, clubs, etc.--and the students were there to attend these things. But I don't think it was safety that kept the Yale students on campus. It was the fact that, at the time, there wasn't a whole lot to do near the campus, and nobody had a car.
As for Duke, do undergrads there typically have cars? If so, the accessible community is much more than downtown Durham.</p>

72

<p>svalbardlutefisk,</p>

<p>
[quote]
Look, New Haven is not what posterX seems to think it is

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I totally agree with you there.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Air quality index 58.6% ..........................: 71.9%
(% of days AQI ranked as good)<br>
Personal crime risk 324 ..........................: 45
(100 is nat'l average; lower is better)
Property crime risk 256 ..........................: 74
(100 is nat'l average; lower is better)

[/quote]
</p>

<p>You can disagree and dispute Money Magazine statistics. Most people in the state feel the same way. All one needs to do is ask what they think of New Haven.</p>

<p>And i think you missed my point about the small towns. In a small town college, there is less to do of course, so if you can not even venture outside your "ivy tower" because of safety issues ( Durham ) or because there is nothing to do ( Gainesville ) that could be a problem for someone like me. ( the reason why I said Personal Note ) It may not matter to you, but it may matter to others like me.</p>

73

<p>MovieBuff, I agree that asking what they think is a great idea, and also where they are going, however your perceptions are extremely dated. Hundreds of thousands of people in Connecticut, and beyond, are now flocking there in droves for the hundreds of restaurants (New Haven has more top Zagat-rated restaurants than the rest of the state combined, including what the NYTimes, Esquire and Wine Spectator have all called the best Spanish restaurant in the country - run by a chef who trained at El Bulli in Spain, widely recognized as the world's #1 restaurant), theaters, concerts, movie theaters, nightclubs, bars, and shopping, not to mention housing (prices going through the roof, thousands of luxury apartments and condos being built all over the downtown area, revitalized neighborhoods throughout the city, etc.). It has become easily one of the most vibrant cities on the East Coast - and that's pretty much the bottom line as to why there now is much more to do within a few blocks of Yale than within a few blocks of all the other Ivy campuses, combined. I don't have any particular agenda for New Haven, but I have spent serious time in or lived in every major city between Portland, Maine and Miami, Florida and am just reporting back on what I know. Just within the past year or two, about 70 new restaurants have opened, so 10 years ago, you used to be able to cruise into that town, now you have to wait in traffic jams on the side streets for half an hour (the streets generally only have one lane, so that's why) as the entire world seemingly descends upon it. It's very similar to what has happened in the Williamsburg section of Brooklyn.</p>

<p>From everything I've ever seen, every Yale student (not to mention the tens of thousands of students from the other colleges in town) spends lots of time leaving the "ivory tower" and exploring neighborhoods throughout the city, just like they would in any major city, and a huge proportion also become involved in very meaningful ways in the city's instutitions, such as small businesses, international headquarters, major hospitals, social service agencies, community centers, schools (one small elementary school near Yale has students speaking 45 different languages, for example, so they always need volunteers to tutor), libraries, Bosnian refugee centers, art galleries, museums, or the town's incredibly impressive City Hall -- which just issued the nation's first municipal ID card program for all city residents and, unlike any other top university in America, sits right across the 400-year-old town square from the freshman dormitories and is always open to students who want to participate in any branch of government. Much of this is within a few blocks so there is a seamless transition -- not the kids getting entirely sucked off campuses like urban schools in larger cities.</p>

<p>As far as your stats go, as I explained in great detail above, you simply can't make comparisons that way -- it is not a matter of interpretation or dispute. Valid comparisons can only be made between apples and apples.</p>

74

<p>posterx, It has been clear to everybody that New Haven "is not what you seem to think it is". No need to waste time discussing this issue with you. However, reading your post in all its hyperbole gave me a very good laugh. Thanks!</p>

<p>I am sure that the Air Quality Index within the perimeter of the college is also much better than when you step out into the town. And if it is not, I am sure that you are working on something to show it is. Perhaps there is some invisible purifier inside one of the buildings of the secret societies. After all, there could never be anything wrong with Yale. </p>

<p>Interesting how just last year, The Deadly Force Task Force, which was created in response to several fatal police shootings in 2005 , voted to recommend that the Board of Aldermen implement a Taser stun gun pilot program for the New Haven Police Department. After over a year of meetings and investigation, members of the task force finally decided to go ahead with this.</p>

<p>The Queen of Denial should not mistaken with The Queen of the Nile</p>

75

<p>As usual Poster-X's comments bare no relation to reality, he is an unashamed Yale troll who takes every opportunity to bash Harvard and any other school he can. Best to ignore him - he is still bitter 'cos he couldn't get into Harvard.</p>

76

<p>MovieBuff, I've already refuted everything else you've posted, so you're left with air quality? Come on. That's not particularly compelling, especially when New Haven has cleaner air than Portland Maine does (probably because it is right on the ocean). The "best places" site has air quality figures to show you exactly how NOT compelling your argument is:</p>

<p>Air Quality "Health" Score (lowest is worst, highest is best)</p>

<p>Houston 1
Los Angeles 1
Chicago 1
Seattle 4
Miami 5 (yeah, Miami is really known for its smog...)
Buffalo 10
Pittsburgh 11
Philadelphia 12
New York City 12
Portland, OR 16
Hartford 18
Portland, ME 18
Greenwich (richest city in the entire United States, near New Haven) 18
New Haven 22
Boston 26
Syracuse 26
Sioux Falls, South Dakota 42 (that must be where everyone wants to live!)
Pocatello, Idaho 51 (honestly, I couldn't even find a city with a higher number than Pocatello, so I listed it here - best air quality in the US! I wouldn't go to college anywhere else!!!).</p>

77

<p>posterx, you are so obsessed that you are always missing the sarcasm. By the way, you have not refuted anything. </p>

<p>I am cracking up right now ! I was wondering if you were going to pull a list with Air Quality stats..!! You are so predictable!..LOL</p>

<p>Why dont u better talk about this:</p>

<p>
[quote]
Interesting how just last year, The Deadly Force Task Force, which was created in response to several fatal police shootings in 2005 , voted to recommend that the Board of Aldermen implement a Taser stun gun pilot program for the New Haven Police Department. After over a year of meetings and investigation, members of the task force finally decided to go ahead with this.

[/quote]
You need some extra time??</p>

<p>Read post # 75. Please.</p>

78

<p>First the air quality, and now tasers? You're rapidly losing your credibility as a troll and trying to change the subject, as anyone reading your history of posts might expect. The police apparently shot a few criminals in 2005, so they've decided, like many other major cities have, to implement a Taser program in order to try to reduce the chances of a criminal being shot by the police.</p>

<p>FYI, <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showpost.php?p=4663268&postcount=29%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showpost.php?p=4663268&postcount=29&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

79

<p>First impressions from a friend and Yalie of 2011 are that New Haven is perfect, there's no beggars or anything, and that it perfectly combines forest (East Rock) and seashore. In short, it's perfect. And in my personal opinion, if Yale is of the same type as Columbia (which has an unbelievable campus), it's tons better than Harvard, whose campus is so annoyingly red you think you're in Communist Russia. Seriously, what's up with the red brick in Boston and Cambridge??!!</p>

80

<p>Same deal with Brown, a lot of red brick buildings. But you know only anarchists and communists go there as well...LOL..</p>