<p>I hear everyone saying it's better than Harvard and Yale, Better than Williams and Amherst.
What makes it better?
Is this true?
Is it the best economics program in the country? (I have heard people say U Chicago is better for economics)</p>
<p>Hahahahahahahaha!</p>
<p>OK.</p>
<p>With that out of the way, celebrating our annual Princeton ■■■■■, let me address your question. Of those top schools, some will be the best undergraduate school possible for one kid, some will be the best one for another kid.</p>
<p>Imagine a chemical engineer who likes the suburbs. Princeton! Imagine an aspiring comedy-writer who likes cold cities. Harvard! Imagine an art historian who has to live in the country. Williams! Poet who wants to live near New York, Princeton or Yale!</p>
<p>And so on. There’s no such thing as best at this level.</p>
<p>Selectivity is a meaningless measure of student quality. There are many students who get into Harvard but not Princeton, or Princeton but not Columbia, or Columbia but not Stanford blah blah blah. And how are you defining selectivity? Amit rate? Caltech’s is higher than almost all of the other schools listed above (mainly due to self-selection). Also, Princeton does have a graduate school (but not med, law, or business).</p>
<p>At the undergrad level, the difference in the Econ programs at Princeton, Harvard, MIT, and Stanford are almost meaningless. I know that at Princeton all their stars teach undergrads (Krugman usually teaches one grad course a year so don’t get your hopes up about him). I don’t know to what extent this is true at Harvard, MIT, and Stanford (Mankiw does, but as an Econ grad student, there are plenty of other amazing economists I’d want to take a class with and I don’t know if they teach undergrads-Rogoff, Fudenberg, Shleifer, Barro, Feldstein etc at Harvard, Duflo, Banerjee, Caballero, Blanchard, Holmström, Finkelstein, etc at MIT, and Taylor, Hall, Levin, Bernheim, Roth, Segal, Hoxby etc at Stanford.</p>
<p>I agree, sammy35 is a ■■■■■</p>
<p>Anyway, to the OP, yes, in my humble opinion Princeton is better because it offers an unparalleled undergraduate experience. When you’re in a school like Harvard which has more graduates than undergraduates, it’s easy to be overlooked and harder to maintain good relationships with faculty, who are more concerned with their graduate students. At a school like Princeton, faculty are more involved with student life. Many undergraduate classes are taught by superstar faculty where elsewhere, TAs would be teaching the class. Princeton is better because of the unique, unparalleled undergraduate experience.</p>
<p>That logic could very well be applied when comparing Princeton to schools such as Harvard, Columbia and UChicago (yes, this is me admitting that Princeton should be better than my future alma mater on that regard), but what about Princeton vs Williams/Amherst/Swarthmore/etc.? It could be argued that these offer a better undergraduate education because ALL their resources go towards undergrads. That Princeton has more money to spend per student wouldn’t necessarily tip the scales in Princeton’s favor, seeing as Harvard technically also has enough money to spend more on each undergrad than top LAC’s. I have to do an analysis now on how much money is spent on grad students vs undergrads, will get back to you on that. I realize that money spent per student is not the sole indicator of quality of undergraduate experience, but it’s a start.</p>
<p>Hi, since were on the topic of princeton, I want to apply to princeton for the grad program in chemical engineering, how competitive/good is the program?also, I heard its one of the few ivies with a engineering grad program?</p>
<p>And by the way, for those that are interested, the Revealed Preference Ranking has been questioned/discredited numerous times on this board and moreover is based on data that is now over 12 years old.</p>
<p>One cannot make a definitive statement about the “quality” of Princeton students versus the “quality” of Harvard or other school’s students. How do you substantiate those claims besides a random article you pulled from somewhere? Where are the statistics? You MUST back up your claim. Perhaps give me a chart that shows the average SAT scores of all admitted students for each of those schools. Then you would need to quantitatively analyze it and show me that Princeton’s students have lower SAT scores. The quality of Princeton students are comparable to the quality of students at other Ivies. My scores were near the top of the scale and I chose to matriculate to Princeton rather than MIT. I didn’t even accept my waitlist offer at Stanford. Again, if you must make such an absurd claim, you must show me the money. Show me statistics/facts and NOT a random article. I can find ten more showing how the quality of Princeton students are the same as/better than those at those other schools. On a side note, Princeton’s yield is still around 60% while Harvard’s is around 70-80%. If what you said were true, then Princeton’s yield should be higher, no? </p>
<p>Now, about Princeton’s ChemE program, it is very good. US News ranked it eighth in the country. It is known as the toughest engineering program here at Princeton and is ABET accredited, as are most of Princeton’s engineering programs. I applied as an AB and am currently considering switching into the ChemE program, so you don’t have to apply to the engineering school directly. It is known as a rigorous program.</p>
<p>Princeton offers the best undergraduate experience because it’s home to the country’s premiere Humanities, Social Sciences, and Natural Sciences departments, and its atmosphere is free from the taint of vocational schools.</p>
<p><a href=“http://registrar.princeton.edu/university_enrollment_sta/common_cds2011.pdf[/url]”>http://registrar.princeton.edu/university_enrollment_sta/common_cds2011.pdf</a>
_______ [ CR ] [ M ] [ W ]
700-800 76.00% 81.00% 80.00%
600-699 21.00% 18.00% 19.00%
500-599 2.00% 1.00% 2.00%</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.provost.harvard.edu/institutional_research/CDS_2011-2012_Final.pdf[/url]”>http://www.provost.harvard.edu/institutional_research/CDS_2011-2012_Final.pdf</a>
_______ [ CR ] [ M ] [ W ]
700-800 73.48% 77.09% 74.82%
600-699 22.57% 21.10% 22.24%
500-599 3.82% 1.81% 2.68%
400-499 0.13% 0.00% 0.27%</p>
<p>Because it lacks Harvard and Yale’s seductive power, Princeton may have to settle for the grinds that H and Y turn down. Overall, P’s class may not be as colorful as those of H and Y, but it’s still the best place to go for those who possess pure intellectual curiosity and want to act on it, without the distraction of blind ambition.</p>
<p>
Harvard College: 6660
Harvard Grad Arts & Sciences: 3870
Ratio: 1.72:1</p>
<p>Princeton Undergrad: 5173
Princeton Graduate: 2610
Ratio: 1.98:1 </p>
<p>Translated, for every 12 undergraduates, Harvard has 7 graduate students and Princeton has 6. Totally negligible difference. </p>
<p>
If that’s true, why does Harvard demolish Princeton when it comes to award production? Harvard has produced triple the number of Princeton’s Rhodes in the last 20 years and more than double its number of Marshalls. Despite Princeton’s vaunted engineering programs, it has produced about half as many NSF scholars as Harvard. </p>
<p>The same pattern holds true for graduate admissions. Harvard and Princeton have 80 and 39 students at Yale Law, respectively. Harvard and Princeton have 39 and 12 students at Johns Hopkins Medical, respectively. This is despite Harvard having top law and medical schools and Princeton having neither. </p>
<p>So…if it’s not selectivity, what is it? Apathy at Princeton toward these things? Superior preparation at Harvard?</p>
<p>@hippo, have you ever considered that maybe those aren’t the type of students Princeton attracts? Princeton’s grade deflation policy makes it unattractive to premeds and prelaws because admission to med and law schools are GPA intensive. Princeton is big on Econ (ever hearda Krugman?). Try looking at another sector, such as business. </p>
<p>The statistics that you offered are flawed and you know it. You conveniently ignored Harvard’s more famous graduate schools, such as law, business, and med. Let’s take a closer look. Harvard has 21,000 degree students, only 6655 of which belong to Harvard College. Any idiot is able to see that Harvard must have over 14,000 graduate students spread throughout its graduate schools of which the Graduate School of Arts and Science is only one. Here, you can even check my statistics: <a href=“http://www.provost.harvard.edu/institutional_research/Provost_-_Harvard_Fact_Book_2009-10_FINAL_new.pdf[/url]”>http://www.provost.harvard.edu/institutional_research/Provost_-_Harvard_Fact_Book_2009-10_FINAL_new.pdf</a></p>
<p>Next time, make sure your math makes sense before you post and make a fool of yourself.</p>
<p>
What about awards production? Perhaps Princeton students are disinterested, but such apathy about academia doesn’t suit a college purporting to be the best undergraduate college. </p>
<p>
On the contrary, they were purposefully excluded. Your claim was that undergraduates at Harvard were neglected by professors. I addressed that point. Undergraduates in economics compete with PhD students in economics for attention. Undergraduates in chemistry compete with PhD students in chemistry for attention. That is why I counted the graduate school, and only the graduate school, in my calculations. Perhaps you can explain how the presence of divinity or architecture students threatens the relationships Harvard College students have with their professors. I certainly cannot!</p>
<p>This claim that Princeton is more undergraduate-focused than other elite private research universities seems to lack any proof whatsoever, aside from claims made by Princetonians who undoubtedly find it comforting.</p>
<p>Harvard students demonstrate a track record of pursuing the most prestigious professional schools and graduate fellowships by choosing to attend Harvard in the first place. I’m not surprised that Harvard has many more applicants to these programs than Princeton. What would surprise me is if Harvard applicants were successful at a significantly higher rate than Princeton applicants. Take a look at average LSAT/MCAT scores of Harvard and Princeton applicants, and I bet you won’t see any major differences. </p>
<p>P.S. Princeton doubled up Harvard in combined Goldwater, Luce, Hertz, Truman, Churchill, and Gates scholars in 2012.</p>
<p>Man, what is this talk?
SO many false data provided by this SAmy and no Hippo!!!
First of all, the yield rate at Princeton is 66% not 50% and it is mainly due to the lack of interest of pre-law/pre-med students who fear Grade deflation.
When it comes to Humanities, Princeton is indisputable !!
IN science, we may not have as high SAT scorers as MIT or IMO medalists, but the quality of our students is best illustrate by the Putnam competition(we’re second to HArvard, no MIT, no Caltech no nothing !!)
Moreover, Princeton has a huge number of prize winners, academy if science memebrs and so… That it is ranked the 2nd behind HArvard mainly because of the size (smaller than HArvard 
)
The undergraduate focus is unmatched! We have the highest endowment per capita in the world and the school is always ready to fund student’s research and bright ideas.
Even the engineering program is getting better and better by time : THE 3RD IN THE WORLD ACCORDING TO THE TIMES HIGHER EDUCATION RANKING !!The only reason why it isn’t as knows as other schools’ is that the number or BSE students : 200 too small compared to 1100 MIT students or so !!!</p>
<p>Also, hippo, not only do undergrads compete for attention, they compete for RESOURCES. Harvard’s resources are spread out through its colleges. Princeton undergrads get most of the University’s spending/funding and as a result, we have the highest endowment by capita. Harvard must spend its funding on med, business, and law school in addition to the College. Who takes priority? The world renowned programs or the undergrads? The fact that Princeton has the highest endowment per capita tells you that it bestows the most of its resources on its undergrads. </p>
<p>To say that Princeton is not competitive with Harvard and other top universities is uncalled for and ignorant. I do not make the argument that Princeton is the best of any university - simply that it is on par with the best and perhaps offers the best undergrad experience.</p>
<p>Seems to me there is a bit of overreaction here to an obvious ■■■■■ post. I believe our friend, currently posting as “Sammy35” is now the proud holder of more than a dozen different screen names, all of which seem to disappear not long after creation. Still, his distortions require a response. Here’s mine.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>SAT Averages</p>
<p>As may not have been obvious from the statistics Kwu posted above, last year’s freshman class at Princeton had the second highest SAT averages of any freshman college class in the country. Princeton lagged only Caltech. In third place was Yale with Harvard and MIT in fourth.</p>
<p>Class of 2015 SAT Averages
(average of verbal and math)</p>
<p>1525 = Caltech
1500 = Princeton
1495 = Yale
1490 = Harvard, MIT
1455 = Stanford</p>
<p>Yield</p>
<p>While Princeton has a lower matriculation rate than Harvard and Stanford, it was nearly identical to (apparently even slightly higher than) Yale’s this year. Now that Princeton and Yale are using the exact same admission systems (i.e. both SCEA) their yields have balanced out. Stanford’s matriculation rate has long been higher than either Princeton’s or Yale’s, though the comparison is difficult because of the athletic scholarships offered by Stanford that cannot be offered in the Ivy League.</p>
<p>Major Scholarships</p>
<p>In terms of winning major national awards, the record of Princeton students and alumni is astounding. Princeton leads all other schools in the country on a per capita basis for the combination of the major scholarships. In many individual awards it leads in absolute numbers with the exception of the Rhodes where Harvard has a clear lead. In absolute numbers, Princeton is second in the nation (behind Harvard) for Marshall Scholars.</p>
<p>Combined Rhodes, Marshall, Gates, Hertz, Goldwater, Luce, Churchill and Truman Scholars for 2011/2012 School Year</p>
<p>19—Princeton
12—Stanford
10—Harvard, Yale
9----Berkeley, MIT
8----
7----
6----Caltech, Cornell</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Graduate School Statistics</p>
<p>Harvard’s graduate school of arts and sciences has an overall matriculation rate of about 60% compared to Princeton’s 50% but an exact comparison is nearly impossible since the mix of programs at the two schools is different. Harvard has nothing like the 90% Graduate School of Arts and Sciences (GSAS) matriculation rate claimed by Sammy35.</p>
<p>Graduate School of Arts and Sciences Matriculation</p>
<p>Harvard = 61%
Princeton = 52%</p>
<hr>
<p>These ■■■■■ posts never cease to amaze me. The persistence of this particular poster is legendary here on the Princeton board. </p>
<p>At this point, we will all stop feeding the ■■■■■.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>[After</a> a Record Admissions Season, GSAS Welcomes 719 New Students - The Graduate School of Arts and Sciences](<a href=“http://www.gsas.harvard.edu/student_affairs/after_a_record_admissions_season_gsas_welcomes_719_new_students.php]After”>http://www.gsas.harvard.edu/student_affairs/after_a_record_admissions_season_gsas_welcomes_719_new_students.php)</p>
<p>After the most competitive admissions season in its history, Harvards Graduate School of Arts and Sciences opens the 201112 academic year with 719 new students 637 PhD candidates and 82 AM candidates.</p>
<p>GSAS received nearly 12,000 applications for admission in 201112 a record high. Offers of admission were made to roughly 9 percent of that pool, or 1,188 applicants, up from 1,127 in the previous year.</p>
<hr>
<p>It shouldnt surprise anyone that this poster continues his string of distortions. The statistics he (she?) cites for graduate school admissions at Harvard are just a small piece of the total story. Specific individual graduate school departments at both Harvard and Princeton have extremely high matriculation rates, particularly if they are smaller. Sammy35 is cherry picking yield results from specific departments at Harvard and comparing those to Princetons overall graduate school yield. Silly.</p>
<p>From the article above, youll see that for the most recent year Harvard made offers to 1,188 prospective graduate school applicants. Of those, 719 chose to accept the offer. The overall yield was 61%, just as I had written previously.</p>
<p>The truly sad thing about this poster is that he apparently believes his own distortions. </p>
<p>What is totally predictable about this poster is that he typically appears in the late spring and late summer just prior to the time students are applying to or considering offers of admission from Princeton.</p>
<p>In my opinion any top school it is the same. There isn’t any difference between MIT, Princeton, Yale, and Harvard. All of these 4 schools are the best schools in the world.</p>