<p>D was so excited to get accepted to Rochester! Grandparents said "how wonderful, and isn't it great that it's a New York state school so you get such a good deal" We explained that Rochester is a private school that just happens to be in upstate NY, where most of the SUNY's are. Grandparents then asked why we would spend $120,000 more to go to Rochester when D was accepted to Binghamton. (D didn't get any merit from Rochester and we don't qualify for financial aid). I'd love to hear from all of you on this subject. Do you feel that Rochester is worth the money and why. In responding, please consider that D is fortunate to be able to graduate either school without any loans/dept. So, it's really not a question of being able to "afford" Rochester, but whether it is worth the extra money. Thanks!</p>
<p>My friend was in the same position as you with the financial ability to pay and to ensure that there would be no loans.</p>
<p>Her older child attended Rochester and loved it. He felt challenged and stimulated and enjoyed his courses and his extracurriculars. He does not have a job yet in his major, but he is working at something that he enjoys and which makes use of his training in his major in a peripheral way. He is happy and so are his parents.</p>
<p>His younger sibling is at SUNY Geneseo. She is doing well but doesn’t necessarily think the classes in her major are that challenging. She doesn’t think that the student body compares to that of U of R (where she visited brother several times) in terms of engagement or intellectual interest.</p>
<p>Her parents could/would have sent her private but she didn’t want that.</p>
<p>If the money you have is in a 529, it has to go to education anyway so unless your child is planning on grad school, you might as well do U of R. I wish I could send my 2012 son there but even if he gets in, I can’t afford it.</p>
<p>We are in a similar situation. My daughter is leaning towards Binghamton where we are OOS. Her other choices are two private schools where she received merit scholarships. For an OOS student, Binghamton is about 25K. My daughter was also accepted at CWRU, with no merit and we didn’t apply for FA. (She hasn’t heard back from Rochester yet, but CWRU is 30K / year more than Binghamton.
I told her that we can pay for a Masters (at Binghamton), or help with a down payment with the money that we would save. Unless 120K is chump change for you, I’d pick Binghamton. Rochester is a wonderful school.</p>
<p>I don’t think any school is worth 120k more - in debt - unless there is a special reason: like Eastman for a musician with real career aspirations. </p>
<p>My standard advice is: go where you can afford, go where they have your program, and go where you like. </p>
<p>I also recommend people think about regions: if you intend to live in Illinois, then a school in SC may be completely unfamiliar to employers. I also ask people to think about whether they’ll be going to grad school because that is more money. </p>
<p>To be clear, how a family chooses to spend money is that family’s choice. Taking on debt is different. $100k in debt is a big nut and would crimp life choices for years. If a family can afford to pay that $100k or a big chunk of it, then the question of value is much more personal. </p>
<p>For context, I went to Yale and while there are some super successful people from my class - discounting, of course, for the kids who were rich when they showed up - the truth is most lead normal lives doing normal jobs. There is no magic ticket and people tend to generalize from the kid who goes Harvard-Harvard Law-federal judge-supreme court when that is the extreme. </p>
<p>There is little research on school effects. What exists says this:</p>
<ol>
<li>It’s the person, not the school; the few studies have tracked kids who were admitted to a “higher prestige” school but went elsewhere and they make the same as if they went to the other school. </li>
<li>And then … most people don’t get that your profession pays what it pays. If you are an engineer, then you make what engineers make. There is no premium because your degree says Michigan or USC - two of the top engineering schools. You may get better access to jobs - “opens the door” idea - but you have to perform and over time it is you not the degree. </li>
<li>Many pay differences are regional. You make more in NJ than in AL. You make more if you go to a public university in NJ than if you go to one in AL because people make more in NJ than AL. (And note that this area in surveys is the one where it seems lots of lying occurs; schools report job %'s and earnings figures that some schools have admitted they mostly make up. Who checks? No one.)</li>
<li>Graduate school matters. One study - like I said, little research in this area - has found that in some academic areas, your first job affects earnings for up to 10 years and that a more prestigious grad school gets you a better job. But college is not grad school. I’ve had lots of discussions about whether it is easier to get into Yale Law from another school or Yale - and I say it’s easier from elsewhere because there is a lot of competition at Yale. But that is Yale Law and that means you are an extremely good candidate and that means you are a star student and will do well no matter what.</li>
</ol>
<p>Hate to say this because D2 has had a wonderful experience at UR and I’ve been happy with the school, but we decided upfront NOT to pay the big extra bucks because I knew both my children were going to do grad and/or professional school after undergrad.</p>
<p>I have 2 Ds. One went to our state university; one goes to UR. (But on substantial merit so the price was the same as as the state flagship–otherwise she’d be graduating from the state school next spring).</p>
<p>Did one get a better overall education than the other? No.</p>
<p>Did one have superior/more research opportunities than the other? Not really (different fields so not 100% comparable)</p>
<p>Did one have better teaching/ smaller classes than the other? Not really. As science majors both kids had a number of large lecture classes and small upper level classes. Both kids had some excellent teachers and some not so wonderful teachers. The one advantage at UR has been the science labs are not impacted. (D1 had to wait until after she’d finished OChem lecture to enroll in the required lab since there’s not enough room for all the students to take lab when they take the lecture portion.)</p>
<p>Did one have superior social or networking opportunities? Not really. Different kids–different interests and drives. D2 has a better resume of awards/achievements than her sister, but that would have been true even if she had stayed in-state. She’s much more driven to achieve.</p>
<p>Will one have better future opportunities for grad and/or professional school than the other? No. In fact, both will probably end attending the same med school.</p>
<p>Will I be able to help finance D1’s medical school education since I didn’t spend $120,000 on her undergrad education? Yes.</p>
<p>I would add that there was a bubble in “prestige” over the last decade+, much like a bubble for luxury goods in which having the “best” becomes worth it. People tend to leap when comparing prestige from community college or the local commuter school to Harvard as if there isn’t an entire universe of schools in between. The bad consequence is people took on huge debt to attend schools marginally better than cheaper choices because they were caught up in a belief that prestige was actually meaningful. I kept pointing out basic economic facts - as described above - but when people are buying on the “come,” meaning on promise, they aren’t rational.</p>
<p>I’ve talked about this with the admissions director at UR, btw, and am pleased that UR tends to go its own way both educationally and with respect to those rankings. UR has a history of barely cooperating. </p>
<p>I’ve had way too many conversations about whether x kid should go to school rated #45 versus school rated #38 or #65 or #18. Assuming one can lump a bunch of schools together in rough tiers, I can’t imagine there is an objective, “meaningful” difference between 35 and 45. What rankings generally reflect is competition level, but even then not completely because a few very large schools are high in the rankings - e.g., Michigan, a family school that I have lots of ties to, has great grad schools and some very well regarded undergrad programs and gets lots of research money but it is huge and thus isn’t as evenly competitive as a smaller school. </p>
<p>A motivated kid will get a good education at a good school. How one defines “good” is somewhat personal and depends on how you and your family values things. </p>
<p>Again, where you can afford, where they have your program, where you like.</p>
<p>Thanks for all the input. It is interesting to me that so far no one has really said why Rochester is a great school. This is my major concern. I do believe that certain schools are worth spending money on because they help you in some tangible way. For example, Ivy Leagues and “prestige name” schools carry a cache that, right or wrong, can give you a leg up in life. Other schools, simply by nature of their location, give kids wonderful internship opportunities (some of the city schools) which helps them build their resumes. And of course there are schools that are just plain old fun and the kids have a blast for four years. You get the point… What do you all feel is special about Rochester that may make it worth the money? I’d love to hear!!!</p>
<p>D2 starting working in a neuroscience research lab at Strong Hospital as a sophomore where she learned some unique and valuable lab skills/techniques. Those skills together with her own drive/interests caused her to propose a independent research project to her research advisor–who FUNDED D2’s project with a combination of UR supplied funds and out of her own research grants. (UR has a special fund for independent undergrad research.)</p>
<p>D2 has been allowed to run with the project–wrote the funding proposal, developed the experimental design, protocols and parameters, wrote the request to get human experimentation permission, recruited and selected study participants, etc, etc. </p>
<p>Because of her unique skills (and excellent GPA and LORs), she was accepted into two prestigious/highly competitive summer fellowship research programs: NIH Summer Intern Program and Amgen Scholars.</p>
<p>D2 will end up with a senior honors thesis and a major journal publication. </p>
<p>All of this will give her an enviable resume for either grad or med school. </p>
<p>Her research advisor also has some excellent contacts within her specialty which may aid D2 in securing a place in a top 5 graduate program. (Unless she decides to go the MD route–in which case the contacts won’t help or the MD/PhD route where the Amgen will help more that her advisor’s contacts.)</p>
<p>Ah!–and did I mention that for the past year, her research advisor has been paying D2 to work on D2’s own project?</p>
<p>Very, very few schools will fund independent undergrad research projects. That is one thing that would not happened if D2 had gone to State U.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, even Harvard is not worth going into debt to the tune of 120K. Like others, D is at UR because of merit. You’ve gotta think with your wallet, not with your emotions.</p>
<p>Hard life lesson to be sure but part of entering the scrary world of adulthood.</p>
<p>^^I absolutely agree. D is at UR on big merit as I said above. If she were full pay for UR, she’d be at state U.</p>
<p>“For example, Ivy Leagues and “prestige name” schools carry a cache that, right or wrong, can give you a leg up in life.”</p>
<p>A little. But consider these factors:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>You got into Yale, so you test well, which means you will test well on the GRE, LSAT, MCAT, etc. You could go elsewhere and you will test as well. This factor is the major reason for kids getting into top law schools - see the law school board on CC for verification - because LSAT’s matter so much. The lesson there is not that Yale gets you into law school but that the score that got you into Yale will become a score that gets you into law school. That is a very important point.</p></li>
<li><p>If you look at areas like business, you have to allow for incoming status. HYP et al have a lot of rich families and people make the association between success and HYP when in fact a big percentage of those kids came in the door with the cash. That hedge fund guy? His father was the head of private banking at a big firm. That developer? His family owns stuff all over NYC. How does the rest of the class do? Beats me. I don’t see a great pattern; successful people come from all over with all sorts of backgrounds. Tremendously successful people are also from all over, if you account for their pre-existing status. (Kind of like the arguments about whether Brian Cashman and Theo Epstein are really that good when they have 2 or 3 times the money to spend on their teams as competitors.)</p></li>
</ol>
<p>IMHO, the “leg up” in life is having brains and motivation. That’s more than a lot of people have. </p>
<p>As for UR, I live in Boston. Mention UR to any person in any medical or science field and they instantly know the name. People from Europe and Asia here as fellows know UR. It sometimes feels like everyone in that community has a tie to UR. Heck, my kid’s surgeon grew up at UR because his father was faculty. My hand surgeon applied there to be a fellow. </p>
<p>Outside of science, UR’s best known field is possibly PoliSci. I’m talking outside of academia. I’m not sure what that means; it’s not like having a good Chinese program at x school matters to people in the real world of business. And then you have to consider the level of business. So for example outside of kids applying to college, most people have no clue what Washington University is; they confuse it with University of Washington or George Washington and marvel at the idea a school with that name is in St. Louis. If you’re working for a scrap metal company, the odds that anyone there knows about WashU or UR may be kind of low. If you’re working at IBM or Apple or GE, they most certainly know. I can’t tell you how many people don’t have a clue that Northwestern is in Illinois. If they’ve heard of it, they only know because of the athletic conference and they don’t realize it’s a private school. But in the places that hire intelligent people, these are all good schools. </p>
<p>In the workforce generally, an HYP degree can get you an interview more easily. But consider the process by which consultancies hire: multiple tests, projects, rounds. This is also true of most if not all high tech companies and more and more companies in many fields. A foot in the door isn’t the same as it used to be because you are then competing round after round and it’s performance that counts. If you live in SC, a degree from Clemson or SC is more valuable. If you live in Texas, UT counts more. People in SC might wonder why a kid went north for school but good employers still know the good schools around the nation. In the end, they are evaluating you and then you have to work and prove yourself.</p>
<p>In academia, if you’re talking about grad school in a particular program - anything from archeology to english - then you should understand a couple of things:</p>
<ol>
<li>These programs are smaller and thus they will look at you more carefully than a law school processing grades and LSAT’s. </li>
<li>They know your school’s program. Let’s say you go to x school because it has a great medieval French program. Your grad schools will know that program and the people in it.</li>
</ol>
<p>This is the U of R section of the website, so there is clearly a bias. </p>
<p>Binghamton is ranked when it comes to providing a good value education. It has a very strong and well-rounded curriculum and a solid reputation, or at least a reputation that is just as good as Rochester’s. </p>
<p>If U of R were very prestigious and did not have any serious flaws, I would recommend spending the immense amount of extra money to pay for it over attending Binghamton, but, to be honest, it is neither very prestigious nor flawless. The U of R name does not carry the prestige that one may think, and the school has many blatant flaws that are listed throughout this forum. </p>
<p>Binghamton also has its weaknesses, but, for all of the advantages U of R has over Binghamton, it is not worth the $120K difference.</p>
<p>Good luck with your decision.</p>
<p>First off, congratulations on two great acceptances.</p>
<p>For the record, my daughter also go into Bing, but she will be attending UDel, but because she was lucky enough to get into the Honors Program, and receive a generous scholarship, the difference was small.We were not going to pay $60,000 more for Udel without the scholarship, and she was fine with that.</p>
<p>Binghamton-No Question! Here is what you can do with the difference with the money:</p>
<p>Give all the money to charity, and change peoples lives forever.</p>
<p>Set up a fund now for the grandchildren. Their college will be paid for.</p>
<p>Buy a car for your daughter.</p>
<p>Pay for study abroad without stress.</p>
<p>Give half the money to charity and still do the above things.</p>
<p>Pay for Grad School in full, and put a down payment on a condo, and still buy a car.</p>
<p>Set up a scholarship fund in your hometown, and pay for others to go to college who couldn’t afford to go.</p>
<p>Set up her retirement account now, and she will not worry about Social Security or Pensions.</p>
<p>The list goes on and on and on. The University of Rochester does not need your money anyway.</p>
<p>Peace.</p>
<p>My last comment: since you are paying the $120k, not borrowing it, this is a wholly personal decision. “Value” in this case is subjective in your case. Worth it becomes a mix of how you and your child value things, experiences, etc., not a question of one school versus another. For example, let’s assume the choice was between Northwestern and University of South Florida and let’s say they cost the same, which isn’t true. If your kid wants to go to USF, that’s your choice as a family, even though an outsider would say the choice is nuts. As between UR and Binghamton, there isn’t a “you’re nuts” difference, so it is clearly personal. </p>
<p>Now if debt is considered - for your kid or for you - then the answer is clear.</p>
<p>Unless you have unlimited resources I don’t distinguish between going in debt to pay the difference or using savings. Obviously you are coming from a stronger position paying out of savings but as this recent recession has illustrated time after time savings can be wiped out pretty fast if you lose your job and health insurance.</p>
<p>I don’t think I could ever justify paying $120,000 more for one school over another. In this case my son looked at and applied to both schools you mentioned and I would be very comfortable having him go to Binghamton-if the difference was this huge that would make the decision easy.</p>
<p>Rochester is a great school and he would love to go but we are weighing this decision as well between UR and a different school and the difference, though not as great as yours, is significant and in the end will probably mean he chooses the other school. I understand this is an emotional decision-we are in the same boat-but I don’t want him graduating from anywhere as an indentured servant.</p>
<p>If you’re paying out of pocket, there are two issues to consider:</p>
<p>1) What did you tell your daughter before and during the application process? If you said she could go wherever she wanted to go, and you did not tie it to aid/cost, then you may not want to go back on that now. When I applied to college in the stone age, my parents were clear - “You will go wherever you get the most aid/whichever will cost us less.” When my d applied, we said, “You can go wherever you feel most comfortable.” (PS - in the spirit of full disclosure, I went to the most affordable school, good reputatin, got a decent education, and disliked almost every minute of it. Not a fit for me.) She had less expensive options, schools that gave her bigger scholarships, but come May, she will be a happy alumna of University of Rochester. We were able to afford it, given budgeting and savings (and we have only one child) and her merit aid/Stafford loans/work study, and paid it willingly. Can you and will you do that? If not, then Rochester should be off the table.</p>
<p>2) How does your daughter feel about the two schools? What does she think the differences are? So much about choosing colleges, realizing that so much of college learning takes place outside the classroom and from her peers, is subjective. Remember that she is choosing not just a place to learn, but a place to live for the next 4 years. Why did you like one house, apartment, neighborhood more than another? Sometimes you just can’t put an objective standard to it; it often boils down to gut feeling.</p>
<p>This is a supremely helpful thread. Thank you for some great perspectve and insights.</p>
<p>Our D has been accepted to UR, Whiman, Dickinson, Union, Bates, Beloit, and U of Maryland at St. Mary’s City. She wants to study anthropology, sociology, continue her German, and pick up another language. She was offered varying amounts of merit aid for all the schools except for Whitman and Bates. We do not qualify for FA and expect to pay with savings.</p>
<p>We are looking at each of the school’s course offerings and that is helping us with the decision process. But this thread has given me a new perspective. Beloit may be a lesser known school, but it has a great reputation for anthropology. As D looks toward grad school, the Beloit degree may be more meaningful than Bates – or UR for that matter.</p>
<p>U of MD, St Mary’s is a great value, but their language department is weak when compared with other schools. So, it’s not a case of “all things being equal.”</p>
<p>(We ruled out Whitman because we realized it’s just too far from east coast home.)</p>
<p>In the final analysis, it will probably come down to where she feels the best fit.</p>
<p>Nervous1: D is a sophomore at UR, has had great opportunities in research. Did an internship last summer at Harvard, this summer will be at Cornell, had been a teaching assistant and got paid for it and also started her research project beginning of this year with her professor. We do not feel she would have had these opportunities at most other colleges, even the big names, and especially state schools in our area. She got some merit, but not alot so we are paying a big loan, but we feel it is worth it. State universities are at the mercy of state budgets and lack of funding which can be a problem in the science and engineering areas. Of course it also depends on what your kid wants to study and what they think they will be earning once graduated. We hadn’t heard of UR, it isn’t well known in our area, but my brother in San Diego said out there UR is as highly regarded, perhaps higher, than the ivy league schools. He recommended she go to UR no matter what other school accepted her. She feels that she made the right decision going to UR. As far as tuition goes, all private colleges are expensive; most people are unprepared to pay the big tuition bill and have to take out a loan. Public universities are cheaper but they usually don’t give out any financial aid.</p>
<p>We toured Binghamton and Rochester this summer, and surprisingly all three of us preferred Binghamton for our son straight up. Our son wound up not applying to Rochester.</p>
<p>SUNY seems to have put a lot of mony into the Binghamton physical campus over the years, it looks like a whole different place from years ago. They have also juggled admissions standards such that Binghamton has separated itself from the other “flagship” SUNYs. And I like the idea,at least, of their residential colleges. Rochester seemed to us a lot more appealing to science majors, which my son isn’t. It might have better research opportunities- but my son at present anyway doesn’t care much about that.</p>
<p>On the other hand we have a cousin who is at Rochester, has had a very good experience and a med school admission in hand.</p>