Is Self-Doubt Part of the Process?

College Majors Music Major
1

Need some advice from veteran music major parents and those going through the process with us now. My D attended an excellent music camp this summer. While it was a truly wonderful experience, it has introduced a new element to this already complicated process: self-doubt.

While some aspects of playing seem to come naturally to her, my D is also a very hard worker. So far, she has been able to meet or exceed goals and expectations. Where we live, she has always been somewhat of a big fish in a little pond. I think she has the potential to swim in the big pond, but I also want to be realistic and to provide her with the best advice and support I can.

Attending a high level music camp this summer (between sophomore and junior years in HS) was easily the “best week of (her) life!”, but I think it may also have been somewhat of a wake up call. The level of play was much higher across the board, and, suddenly, she wasn’t necessarily at the top of the group. She is someone who likes to be challenged, and to have a goal to chase, but somehow this experience seemed to shake her (at least temporarily) more than motivate her.

Despite the fact the she was, to my untrained ear, able to keep up with those in her group, the experience definitely introduced a level of self-doubt I haven’t seen before. Some of the kids at camp were older than her, attend performing arts schools, study with the best teachers, etc., but she’s having a hard time keeping that in perspective. ‘If there were that many good players at (name of camp), how many must there be around the country waiting to apply to the same schools I am?!? How could I ever possibly hope to get a job in the classical music world?’

Like many musicians, my D tends toward perfectionism. I’m wondering if her current bout of self doubt is part of the normal progression of things, part of an important reality check, or maybe just part of being 16?

Anyone else experience this, and what do you recommend?

2

My daughter’s is in the theater world and this happens at every level. Many of her friends at her performing arts high school were where your daughter is at today. In life, there are always somebody better and worse. The high end music world is very competitive. But there are orchestras at every level also. But… If she truly wants to get to her potential she needs to elevate her game. This might be in a form of hiring a tutor to get her there. The camp evaluated her and they should have suggestions. The people she studies with during the year would have suggestions also. She should do this to better herself and test herself. This at some point should be motivating her to get better not discouraging her.

3

Yes, this is absolutely a common problem, and, worse, it’s one that is not commonly discussed among musicians, at least not in the highly competitive classical music world where there is a tendency towards subtle psychological behaviors that suppress this idea. Students at your daughter’s stage are often shaken when they progress into a more sophisticated (in terms of musical training, not manner or behavior) environment and are suddenly forced to re-contexutalize their sense of how they fit into the world. This happened to my daughter several times, the worst being at the start of 11th grade when she entered a precollege program at a renown conservatory and realized more deeply that she was competing against peers with flawless technique who’d been practicing five hours a day since nursery school and who were not necessarily collegial. Some kids are honest about how hard they work, but there is also a tendency for “spin”–“Oh, I was out partying all night. I hardly ever practice”–where the opposite is true.

In someways, it seems like it might be easier to stay in the big-fish/small pond environment so one’s self-confidence isn’t shaken, but there are many advantages to progressing to the more challenging environment. For one, you daughter is able to improve her playing technically and maybe make some adjustments to her audition plan. By adjustments, I don’t mean to lower her goals or expectations but rather to cast a wider net just because auditioning can be extremely unpredictable, as can audition panels, results, and financial aid awards. It’s very hard to predict. For another, even if she didn’t experience this self-doubt now, it would hit her when she got to college, or worse, to grad school, and it’s better to deal with these feelings now. The truth is that almost every musician experience self-doubt and its twin, the Imposter Syndrome. Imagine landing at your dream school and thinking, “I don’t belong here.” The secret is, this is a very common thought. [I can add more about this later.] So your daughter’s uncomfortable experience is part of the growing process, and going through it now is actually an advantage.

My last thought is this: remember the old fable of the tortoise and the hare? “Slow and steady wins the race.” I’ve been on the sidelines of this business long enough to the truth, or at least partial truth, in this statement. Many, many teen hotshots burn out, lose interest, etc. and do not go on for careers in music. And I’ve many, many kids who’ve come from well behind end up with satisfying careers, thanks to their determination and pluck. A music career is “the long game.”

4

Thank you @Knowsstuff and @glassharmonica! Yes, my gut tells me that this is an absolutely common problem–and probably far from the only time my D will deal with it. Just threw me for a loop when my usually fearless and tenacious musician was seeming anything but!

While I was in grad school (unrelated field) and feeling the same way, I remember someone having the bravery to speak these words (Imposter Syndrome) out loud. What a relief! Not sure why feelings of self-doubt and uncertainty cannot be more frequently or openly discussed. Never show weakness, I guess!

Beginning to think that we may need to widen our net, as you suggest. Planning to tour and take sample lessons this year as time and money permit. I wonder if you could offer some thoughts on this. Would it be appropriate at the end of such a lesson to ask something like, “Do you feel she is on the right track? Are there any other suggestions you could make to help her elevate her play?” I would never want to give the impression that we are fishing for assurances RE future auditions or for some future advantage. It would really just be helpful to have an accurate picture of what we’re working with.

I am also beginning to feel that it might be time to supplement her regular private lessons. This feels somewhat tricky as D has a strong working relationship with her teacher and still feels that teacher has a lot to offer. The previous top student at the studio left prior to her senior year, and things got messy. Feelings were hurt. Would never want to jeopardize the relationship between my D and this teacher…

5

@MusicNerd2 I was surprised on how much my D’s teacher helped her through the audition process and even choosing a program. It was her teacher’s contacts that led to valuable info that steered her away from some places/teachers and towards others. When my D was short a letter of rec for one program, her teacher arranged for another voice teacher (who had heard my D perform through the years but never worked directly with her) to write a letter of recommendation. I’d be cautious about anything that upsets that “strong working relationship.”

6

I love what glassharmonica wrote about the tortoise and the hare. So true. In some ways, for some kids, it is harder for the teen wunderkind than the late bloomer- for complicated reasons.

I would add that music isn’t all about technique :slight_smile: Some schools want professional polish, but many great schools are looking for musicality and other aspects of talent, even if in a more raw form.

Also students at top grad schools come from all kinds of undergrad schools and backgrounds.

Finally, whether in music, dance, musical theater or any other art form, the hierarchical notions of talent is really not healthy. Maybe unavoidable, but not healthy. Just as dancers don’t have to get caught up in the race to a large ballet company, musicians don’t have to compete with an orchestral chair in mind.

There are many paths and options in music.

Self-doubt is certainly part of the picture. The ideal is to find a school where a student feels inspired by those around him or her, but not discouraged- and where everyone supports one another.

Idealistic, even utopian, and hardly possible, but it is nice to think about anyway.

ps I hate to hear about “messy” situations that happen when a student moves beyond a current teacher. A good teacher would encourage growth and moving on. Hurt feelings on the part of the teacher, if that is what you meant, is not the priority to address. I would get away from that teacher as fast as possible. But find one at a university or conservatory or who otherwise knows the field and can help guide choices.

7

Excellent comments above. Here are a few more opinions on self doubt.

  1. Is it common? Heck yes! My D deals with it to this day (and as a parent it still spills over to me - my D’s 25).
  2. Is it fixable? No. Is it manageable? Yes. Absolutely. And over time, with her being honest about her feelings, and you assuring her it’s natural she’ll learn to deal with it in healthy ways.
  3. How could this be good? When kids get to college on their own they can get some real surprises. Let her know that she’s learning at an early age how competitive music is and if she wants to continue, she goes forward with a lot more knowledge than some peers. One piece of knowledge is: she won’t be the best! No one is. Is she OK with that? She may need time to process that. BUT assure her there are many paths in music...so she need NOT focus on being the best. She should just focus on her own growth and appreciation for music. In high school and early college the path feels very narrow but during later college it opens up to many possibilities.
  4. The best advice I got: when your kid loses her confidence, a parent needs to believe for her. And this is harder than it sounds.
  5. Please be aware that self-doubt can be more dependent on personality than talent level! I would be careful about adding fuel to her fire of self doubt (by suggesting ways for her to get better - yikes - when maybe she’s fine). Maybe a discussion with her and her teacher together if she seems concerned over many weeks. I would try to get a third party opinion before I completely believed a young musician with perfectionist tendencies coming home from a competitive camp where “everyone was better”. This is so common there must be a movie about it somewhere.

I could be completely wrong of course. I don’t know your D. But some thoughts based on experience…hopefully something helps.

8

Is it strange that I want to hug all of you? Your words and advice are truly a gift. Will share some of your thoughts with D when the time feels right. @bridgenail --you even had me a little teary with gratitude for your wisdom and ‘knowing’. Your words were spot on! Thanks all!

9

PM’ed you

10

It’s appropriate for her to ask, but the parent should probably not even be in the lesson. Yes, this artifice, and everyone in the music world knows how important, vital, even, it is to have an engaged and supportive parent. But for teachers, a parent talking in the lesson is a turn-off. Anyway, separation is also part of the growth of the student to separate from the parent, and that begins with the parent not speaking for her, and not being present in the trial lessons. (This was very hard for me, but I survived it–most parents do.)

This is also a common problem–we went through it, and I’ve seen others go through it. My daughter was with a teacher from age 6 through 14 and he did not want to let her go (I had been advised to move her since she was eleven, and we both agree in retrospect I should have been braver. The breakup was painful.) However, your situation could be different and it might be fine to stay in the current studio. But it’s always good to supplement. (I’m not sure what instrument your daughter plays; mine is a string player.) It’s common to take lessons and masterclasses with outside teachers once the foundation is settled. They provide fresh feedback that can be useful to everyone, even the primary teacher. In college and grad school my daughter was always in split studios, which in effect gave her four teachers because of the high-level TAs. Now that she’s out of school she takes lessons regularly and frequently with new teachers when the opportunity presents itself. For a student preparing for college auditions, it can be useful to have a second teacher to bring certain rep to, or to get general feedback. Also, the supplemental teacher may have connections/insights into conservatories that the primary teacher might not have. I know many people who have or had a “secret teacher” because of issues with the primary’s ego, but it’s more usual, I think to simply do it in the open.

I wish this were true(r) but, as a famous teacher said to my daughter when she was your daughter’s age, “We [the faculty] have such different ideas about musicality that we have to reduce our decisions to the common denominator of what we can agree on, which comes down to pitch and technique.” I actually think this attitude promotes an environment that prizes accuracy over musicality. But there it is.

11

I assume your daughter’s relationship with her teacher is great. It just bothers me that she was not prepared emotionally for this music camp.

My friend’s daughter was recruited by Michigan State for track on scholarship. She came from a small school. Once she got to Michigan State she had problems adjusting. Fighting with her coach who wanted to improve her technique etc.She was also up against some very talented people. She ended up not able to take the pressure, critiques that she never had before when winning state in track.

She ended up going to Eastern Michigan on scholarship. She was again the big fish as you stated. She thrived there.

Not everyone is up for the challenge. Your daughter has to understand that no one perfects their musical craft. Yo Yo MA had teachers for a long time. Adele has a vocal coach. You keep practicing your craft to get better.

I think taking her to a local college /conservatory for evaluation is a great idea but she has to be ready for the criticism. Sometimes a different view point is good.

My son played competitive chess. We thought we had the right coach for him till he got stagnant. We tried one lesson on a suggestion with a different well known coach. It was like a vail was lifted and my son could see moves that he never saw before. Sometimes change is good. But or course if her teacher has the talent to get her where she wants to go to that is great also.

No reason that you can’t say what you observed from your daughter and see where that takes you. I wouldn’t worry about his feelings. A teacher wants the best for their student. In my sons case, we saw his old coach all the time. All the coaches know each other and maybe it’s more acceptable.

12

Yes, to what everyone else has already said.

Also, during auditions, pay absolutely no attention to what you hear coming out of other rooms. They may be other candidates trying to psych out the competition by loudly playing just a tiny part of something really impressive They might be graduate students. They might not even be auditioning.

13

^^wise words from both @Knowsstuff and, as always, @stradmom My daughter has been out of school for two years and continues to seek out teachers, both privately and in masterclasses, to get new perspectives and insights. And yes, what you hear “through the door” before an audition can be unsettling–you have to learn to block it out.

14

With anything that involves talent, as you move through the funnel, a greater number of people “have it”, and it’s hard to outdo the genius who is also practicing 5 hours a day. But neither talent nor work ethic alone is enough.

I would let your D talk out her feelings about this, and also emphasize how her recent experience may have shown her how she can work smarter. She’s young, and where she is relative to peers can certainly change. If she continues to pursue this, this will be her milieu.

If she loves to play, there’s no reason not to give it her all. She should certainly understand the career/ professional landscape.

Just a thought if she struggles with confidence – a psychologist who works with performers can be helpful. (Athletes who work with sports psychologists find them very beneficial. )

15

One other comment: be sure to talk with her about “motivators” at some point. It’s OK to have external motivators - winning competition, being #1 at school, climbing the ladder and grabbing the next prize, impressing mom, dad, teachers and peers. Most high schools kids that go on to music school will have had a lot of these successes. But as she gets older some of these external motivators will be harder to come by. When you go to a competitive camp or college, it may be the first time that a student is in the middle…or in the bottom 50%! And there is NO shame in your kid ending up in this situation (mine certainly did!). In these situations, all the sudden the external motivators are gone…or worst yet going to your roommate!!

Since music is a long haul, it seems that the students who have some internal motivators (to offset all the external ones) seem to do well. That’s how the kid who “the best” (until they’re not) will leave music. It’s simply not worth it anymore as they aren’t getting what they need from it. They can feel empty. And the kid who is less focused on the external accomplishments will continue. For my D, the saving grace has been she loves the “creative process”. If it was all about her being the best or number one, she would no longer be in music. That ship sailed long ago. But she loves working with musicians and performers to put a piece together. The creative process and continuing to learn, grow and interact with other artists, I would guess, is what keeps her going (since … believe it or not … she’s not #1).

16

@bridgenail all I can say is Yes! The creative process is key. So many talented kids drop out since they don’t understand this. The ones that stick with it climb the ladder. Not always the most talented.

My son had a choice to go to Michigan for engineering or a school maybe not with the same stats but easier. He didn’t want to be at the higher end of students just for the sake of it. He wanted to be challenged by the best and brightest to make himself better… Sorta to rise to the occasion. His GPA took a hit from high school but somehow this motivates him to try harder. He is just a normal kid there.

17

Bridgenail that is the best post ever (and says so much better what I was struggling to articulate).

In fact, regardless of the area of study or interest, a transition to maturity seems to involve a transition from external motivators (grades, awards, praise) to internal ones. I am really interested in this and tried to raise kids who did not rely on external motivators (didn’t look at grades etc.) with mixed success!!

Ultimately, in practical terms, career concerns involve a certain amount of external evidence Resumes and recommendations, awards, festivals and residencies, and so on. So it becomes a tricky matter to organically grow from the inside while moving forward in the outside world.

For a kid contemplating undergrad choices, maybe it comes down to how much they love music. I know my kid tried to stop and couldn’t!

18

So many wise words here from people who truly GET IT. That is one of the reasons these boards are so helpful. Don’t mean to sound dramatic when I say it, but it’s often just too complicated/frustrating trying to talk about this with other parents. It’s a whole different world!

To clarify a few details… yes, my D has a very good relationship with her teacher. A trusted mentor and advisor. Issues in the past with another student leaving and things getting complicated had more to do with the other student’s parent and the way the transition was handled. I could still imagine the possibility of hurt feelings, but I don’t feel like we are there quite yet. Will be seeking out trial lessons and other opinions this year–without overdoing it. We are 60-90 min.+ from other top options, but I could see this as an occasional thing we do. She definitely has a sense of wanting to be challenged in music settings–of not always wanting to come in as the best in the group, so that’s helpful (and realistic!).

From watching my D at the end-of-camp-recital, I would never have known she was anything less than thrilled and confident about her experience. I think it was a reality check, and the intensity and time-limited nature of camp was the most overwhelming part. I think it was like cramming auditions and the first week of college all into one. No way to fully prepare for that, and I would actually have been surprised if she HADN’T felt overwhelmed. Just glad she’s talking about it, and hope the conversation continues. For what it’s worth, she seems to be a ‘teachable’ student, and to handle criticism well (i.e. is usually able to ‘roll with it’, and find something useful to implement)

For my part, I have decided to continue researching music schools (I look at it as a temporary, necessary obsession), but to talk about it less with her for now. I fear I may have been overwhelming her with the many useful tidbits of information gleaned from these pages. (Stay in your lane, mom! She’s got this…)

I can absolutely see what others are saying about motivators. Much of her life in HS has revolved around those external motivators. It IS pretty awesome to achieve those goals, win that seat, earn praise from teachers, etc., but I can also see the wisdom in shifting the focus to the creative process, working collaboratively, the great feeling she gets from playing well in settings she enjoys… I’m thankfully seeing that internal motivation creep back in. She’s had some great practice sessions in recent days.

I do think that another part of her concern is the time and money that has been invested in this pursuit…expensive overhaul of her instrument, camps, lessons, etc. I know she worries about letting everyone else (and herself) down. What if, after all of this time, expense, specialization (at the occasional expense of academics and other interests), etc. it isn’t enough? Fortunately, I think these feelings are lessening–at least for the time being. My ‘helpful’ suggestion that it didn’t matter, that we just want her to do what she loves and finds fulfilling wasn’t met with much enthusiasm. I guess sometimes the thing you love/hate/stress about, etc. is one and the same! I do like the idea of working with a sports psychology type person. I think there is a surprising amount of crossover in these performance type fields.

Finally, so true what others have said about ‘paying no attention to the sounds coming from behind those doors’! Just last night D was playing in a community concert. All ages, good players, but a fairly low-key community group none the less. There was a kid in the row behind my D who was doing some pretty impressive warming up. He looked to be about D’s age, but I’d never seen him before and knew nothing about him. I’m not proud to say, I almost lost my mind thinking, “Seriously?!? Who is this kid? Do I actually know nothing about this instrument? Is EVERYONE good at playing it?!?” Turns out he was all-state, all-east, etc. in HS, and is headed to Peabody in the fall. :)) Talk about a reality check moment! Stay cool, mom, stay cool! =))

19

I don’t have much to add to the great comments/advice in this thread. The discussion about internal motivation particularly resonates. But I figured I’d join the choir in saying that, yes, self-doubt is totally normal. My son’s focus is jazz, not classical, but I could have written a post very similar to yours after my son’s first time attending a high level summer music program. He came back feeling that he was behind the curve in terms of his technical skills, particularly compared to some of the kids from performing arts schools. But he also loved being surrounded by and playing with kids who were so talented and who shared his passion for the music. I think the keys are (1) try to use the self-doubt to motivate and not to discourage and (2) don’t lose sight of the “best week of my life” part of the equation.

As others have said, music is a long game. My son is now 25 and feels like he’s still at the early stages of the journey. His response to being “behind the curve” was just to keep working at it. He also took a gap year between high school and college and really developed a lot in that year. A gap year is certainly not for everyone, but it’s an option that shouldn’t be overlooked or feared.

Now two years out of college, my son is fortunate to be making a living with his music. But the self-doubt never disappears completely, as there are always going to be obstacles in a music career. When he puts together a tour, he probably gets three rejections (or just no response) for every venue that books him. He has some very talented friends, including some who were high school superstars, who have dropped off the music path. And he sees many older, established musicians who are still constantly hustling to make a living. But his passion for the music hasn’t waned and he remains committed to continuing to work hard and develop. And when he plays music he loves, with musicians he loves playing with, to an appreciative audience that connects with the music, he says it makes it all worthwhile.

Good luck to your D on her journey. Hopefully she will continue to find the great joy she seems to find in her music despite all the stresses this path entails.

20

I have a rising senior who found his passion for music considerably later than most (he started lessons in 7th grade and didn’t take them seriously until 9th grade. We just wanted him to do school orchestra because he doesn’t do sports - we never dreamed that it would become his one true love.

He’s grown a lot as a player in the last couple of years, but he doesn’t even get the satisfaction of being the best in his ordinary public high school (a kid transferred in who has been taking lessons since age 6). Fortunately, my son is inspired by this classmate and not discouraged. He just did an instrument-specific summer music program (his first one) and it was the best week of his life. It didn’t require an audition and didn’t have a competitive vibe to it, but the music he worked on there was at a high level and he held his own and met some great people.

He is not going to be targeting top schools but it’s really hard not to have doubts about whether it’s “too late” for him to pursue this at the ripe old age of 16.