Is there any hope for DS

Parents Forum
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<p>As some of you may already know, our DD is a decent student. Following the footstep, our DS has been well regarded in school until lately. Other than being a straight A student, DS got a 25 on ACT explore and 1800ish on SAT I at 8th grade.</p>

<p>Lately, the boy is not doing too well. He is almost certain getting a B in his first AP history class. I just found out his ACT plan score is on the low side. The bright spots are that he is doing o.k. on the highest math track course and his PSAT was 195ish. </p>

<p>I posted before that DS had expressed the intention to do some preparation classes for either ACT or SAT. My hope is to get his PSAT up enough to make NMF so he could have some merit options. </p>

<p>Apparently DS does not have the same type of drive as DD. We have one year really for standard test stuff. Should I follow what I have learnt from dealing with DD - just back off and let him run or fall? I would really appreciate any and all suggestions.</p>

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<p>Please do not make the mistake of comparing your son to your older daughter. If you do this, it will likely lead your son to have bad feelings towards his sister, not to study harder. Encourage him to to do his best at the things he is good at, but do not hold his sister up as an example of what he is expected to achieve.</p>

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<p>What grade is he in? It sounds to me like he's doing fine and is quite motivated if he's taking an AP course and is interested in a test prep course. I would be encouraging and supportive and avoid comparing him to his sister. Doesn't sound like he's falling or failing to me.</p>

<p>Cross-posted with MotherOfTwo. Great minds thinking alike.</p>

4

<p>I don't see the problem. Getting a "B" in one course -- or even in all courses is OK. Such a kid could get into most colleges in the country even without the stellar ACT/SAT scores (for his grade level) that your S already has.</p>

<p>My advice is to back off. He doesn't seem on track for failing at all: Seems on a fast track to success.</p>

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<p>DS is in 10th grade now. </p>

<p>I have made very clear long ago that we will not compare DD and DS (even so DD is doing some of that). All I am trying to do is to get DS to do his best. </p>

<p>For DD, I don't have to do much, if any, for her class works and e/c activities. So, I have not really much experiences in motivating a boy. </p>

<p>He is not failing but he is not doing to his ability. He spent more time on PC games than doing anything else. I don't want to take away his laptop but I don't know what else to do.</p>

<p>PS. I remember reading some where that Asian boys are the most competitive group for college admission. if my DD has a difficult time getting any where other than State U. I am concerned about DS's chance.</p>

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<p>LOL Bethie - </p>

<p>You are the one with a great mind, since you only have one kid!
I, unfortunately, speak from personal experience, and actually I tried to avoid comparing my two kids. It was just the incorrect PERCEPTION of being compared that set my younger one off when she was younger (as well as insensitive comments by teachers who taught both kids). Thankfully, this period is behind us and it is water under the bridge at this point!</p>

<p>EDIT - Dad II - Please tell your daughter NOT to compare her brother to her, and to stay out of his business as far as his grades, scores, etc. Let it be between you and your wife and your son, and tell your daughter to worry about her own school work, college choices, and whatever else, not her brother's. Again - I speak from (unpleasant) experience!</p>

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<p>My brother just called and told me that his DD got into Stanford with a full scholarship to get her Ph. D. in Chem. Eng. They are waiting for other offers from MIT, Yale, etc. That girl knows study, straight A in all years of college and a perfect GRE score. Unlike my kids, she does not need one word from anyone about homework or study. In fact, you may have to cut her hands off to get her away from her desk.</p>

<p>Oh well.</p>

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<p>Please do not compare them, especially out loud! Learn to appreciate your son for all of the wonderful qualities he has. It sounds like he's headed in the right direction anyway. And do NOT let your D become involved in his academic strategy - that's a surefire setup for longterm resentment. It's not her business and not a subject for discussion.</p>

<p>I have seen my son hurt so many times by IDIOT teachers out there who fail to see his wonderful qualities because he isn't "perfect student" older sister. You would think that, of all people, teachers would be sensitive to the fact that kids are individuals and not carbon copy clones of their sibling. Sadly, they are often the worst perpetrators of this offense - foot in mouth disease beyond belief.</p>

<p>Best of luck to you; it sounds like you have two great kids. Let them (and others) appreciate their differences.</p>

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<p>Not everyone is Ph.D. material. It's hard for kids not to compare themselves with each other. My kids are well aware that for our oldest everything about school comes much more easily that it does for son number two. I don't know any boy who doesn't spend more time than we think they should on computer games. I think with a 10th grade PSAT of 190+ and at least a B student should have some very good choices. Don't worry!</p>

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<p>Our family situation sounds exactly like that of the OP. Daughter and son both have close to identical IQ scores, both did equally as well in the lower grades, and then in intermediate School, one seemed to have lost all drive and motivation for school. Guess which one.</p>

<p>At our high school all those with a 4.0 and above are called valedictorians. I have been attending graduation for four years now and have seen only one male valedictorian. I have come to the conclusion that, at least in our town, it is not considered manly to do work hard and do well academically. Sports are a different matter. After a few years of being upset by my sons lack of performance, I gave up on worrying about it. He takes AP's and honors, he gets A's, B's, and C's (AP Bio), is an avid team member in X-country, track and swimming, and belongs to two clubs. He has a lot of friends who seem to be really good kids, has decent manners most of the time, almost always has a book in his hand, and loves to write. He will not go to a school the caliber of his sisters, but that is OK. He does not belong at a school like that yet. What I find with the boys is that once they find their interest and motivation, they take off. Of course, waiting for them to do so is a bit trying!</p>

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<p>Dad II</p>

<p>I think you've made a lot of progress in your time here on CC, but your expectations of your kids are still a bit higher than some of us here are comfortable with. How much time is he spending on games? What are his other grades like? If he's getting all A's and B's he should be in good shape for quite a few colleges.</p>

<p>Boys tend to "take off" academically later than girls and do better in college than they did in high school. It doesn't mean they are lazy.</p>

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<p>He is who he is, Dad II, and your relationship with him as his father will last long after his educational experiences and efforts. If he is not tending to his schoolwork, by all means, limit his computer games time (a certain number of hours over the weekend, if his work is caught up). If he is not inclined to practice for the standardized tests on his own, put him in a class. Otherwise, this is his problem and his future. He has such stellar role models ahead of him in his generation of your family, it may make it harder to strive.....there are too many high achievers. I read somewhere that each child in a family has to find his role or specialty within the family. Clearly the strong, aspiring student role has been taken. All you can do is help his prioritize, and encourage and support his interests. The rest is up to him. Good luck. Lorelei</p>

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<p>I'd say that one B is not the end of the world. In fact ALL B's wouldn't be the end of the world. Some kids don't develop that drive for academic success until they hit college and even then for some it takes finding a major which interests them to spark that drive. Other kids just have that drive all along. Please...this son sounds like he's doing fine. And since you don't have to divulge your ethnicity on the application, what possible difference would it make that he is an Asian male?</p>

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<p>being the parent of 3 boys that are 15,17 & 19, I have seen my share of boys comparing one against another. We have never tolerated it when one would put the other(s) down. We stress that they each have their own gifts and talents. They support each others talents and activities. We are a FAMILY made up of distinct individuals. We only ask that they each do their best.<br>
It sounds like your DS is just going through a phase. Don't stress about it.<br>
If you push the wrong buttons you may push your DS farther away. </p>

<p>Love your DS and TELL HIM EVERY DAY THAT YOU LOVE HIM!</p>

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<p>Dad II,
I also have a soph son with a senior sibling. It's hard to follow a successful sib, lemme tell you. (I was the older sister w/younger brother who suffered from teacher comparisons. Not pretty.) </p>

<p>We try very hard to keep the comparisons out of the discussion, but DS2 internalizes some of this regardless. DS2 is very bright, is in a competitive program and doing well. He can speak eloquently about any topic, the adults (related or not) in his life think he's something quite special, and he has a wide array of talents. </p>

<p>'B's happen. Adolescent boys take longer to mature in these things than their older sisters. Heaven knows that two years ago DS1 was not exactly the poster boy for organization. DS2 happens to love history and science -- but math is endless torture. He moved to a slightly less intense math track this year so he could focus on making his other classes shine (last year, he got Bs in things he should have nailed because of all the time we spent on math). He's happier and his grades are much better.</p>

<p>My work with DS2 is to help him focus on things he loves to do and is good at. It's an entirely different list than his brother's, so the experience I have with DS1 is of very limited use. The biggest hurdle is shaking his mindset that he works and works and works and still has crummy grades (to his thinking), and so why bother trying at anything else. </p>

<p>As for test scores -- DS2 took the PSAT in 9th and 10th, without any prep. He was happy (!) with his score this year and is within range of NMSF if he digs in and pulls up his math score. (We have an insanely high qualifying score here.) </p>

<p>My suggestion is to focus on his strengths and find activities that support those. Motivate him to get off the computer rather than taking it away.</p>

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<p>Sounds like your son is a great kid of whom you should be proud
All kids have their strengths and what our children need most from us is unconditional love and caring
Perhaps what he is acheiving now is his best---it should be celebrated</p>

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<p>I don't get this. While I agree about the not comparing the two siblings and accepting your son the way he is and all the other great advice.....that doesn't seem like the main issue to me, anyway. What stands out to me in your post is that your son IS achieving....HIGHLY. You say he has had STRAIGHT A's!!! And now, part way through tenth grade, he is running a B in an AP class (which is advanced for tenth grade anyway) and is not his final grade and so what if he does get a B or a B+ by the end of the year in ONE course??? I've gotta tell you, you do NOT need straight A's to go to the most elite schools in the land. You do need to take a rigorous course load (sounds like your son is on track there) and do well....but all A's and a B would be considered very very good and acceptable to any school on those grounds in isolation from other aspects. Then, you mention his ACT Plan scores and PSAT scores in TENTH grade.....you need to know that those scores are not indicative of what he will get in spring of 11th grade or even fall of senior year. Tests in tenth are usually not even done with any prep. I can't recall what my kid got on the PSAT in tenth....it may have been even lower than you said, but she got much higher on her SATs in spring of eleventh and did some prep as well (did no prep at all for PSATs). She's at an Ivy. It seems to me that your son's grades and even tenth grade scores are in good shape for now. This isn't even about accepting who he is....my post is trying to express that his achievements are excellent so far academically (test scores don't even count yet!). </p>

<p>I also hope you realize that there is more to getting into selective schools than GPA and test scores and so hopefully your son is engaged in his interests outside of his schoolwork, as well. Sounds to me that on the few things you shared, he is doing great. </p>

<p>I personally think your standard may need adjustment or to be enlightened and put his academic record in context (the fact that one B is all right, and second, that his test scores for a TENTH grader are good and should not be compared to college applicants as his score is sure to rise with time and with prep). Your son's profile is very good. Perfection is not what is needed to get into a good college.</p>

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<p>You might consider a conference with his AP History teacher, as I did during S's l0th grade but in its natural timeframe (fall parent conferences). </p>

<p>Our youngest was invited to take AP History in l0th grade. This was a rarely permitted opportunity at his school, but he caught the attention of his 9th grade teacher, who told him to take summer school in l0th grade history to clear his schedule for an AP opportunity in l0th grade.</p>

<p>S earned B's the entire first half of the year in that AP History course. The teacher was experienced and capable. To all parents at Fall conferences, he pronounced it "normal" to see first B's as students began to master the scale and scope of an AP course, particularly in History. Privately, to me, he emphasized that l0th graders haven't had as much academic experience as llth graders, and specifically less experience in writing essays, all of which impacted his course grades, so absolutely expect no more than a B for l0th grader. He did say that if S "stay tuned" during the second half of the year, things might improve as he began to train them very closely for the AP exam. ALSO, I learned that students should be reading their textbook extensively at home, and he wasn't. The course intensified in Spring, and along with it my S's attention, especially the home reading. That was crucial.</p>

<p>He ended out l0th grade with an A in the final quarter, a "5/5" on the AP test in May, l00 percent on the state regents in June (piece of cake after those AP exams).</p>

<p>The following year he took 4 AP's and had the great background of having tried one out in l0th grade. </p>

<p>So it may just be that it's the nature of that particular teacher's pacing of the course that there are B's for l0th graders in the first half. I'd recommend a 3-way meeting to find out exactly what steps could bring up the grade by end-of-year. Keep your focus on end-of-year, not past grades. Also, since the topic is History, be on the lookout for all kinds of good programs on the History Channel. It's really pleasant to see this stuff in a documentary or video format. </p>

<p>Encourage your S to pay lots of attention when the teacher teaches (as I hope he will) exactly how to write history essays. Both of my S's said they learned how to write more from their history teachers than their English teachers; the critical thinking was stronger. (EDIT: That was true of these particular teachers, not the subject matter -- didn't mean to English teachers reading this!) </p>

<p>My S's teacher told the kids it's an entirely different way of writing than they've ever encountered, with a premise, supporting evidence and conclusions. It's rather formulaic. As well, it takes them a while to figure out how to write convincingly about the "DBQ" (data based question) where they analyze primary sources (such as an editorial cartoon or diary entry from that era) but must learn to use the historic trends studied in class to illustrate their points about the primary source. There's a lot to learn to write successfully, and at least here, that component was the difference between B and A in an AP History class. It's a lot to learn in l0th grade.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
In fact, you may have to cut her hands off to get her away from her desk.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, I hope your niece is finding the time to make friends, find some non-academic hobbies, that sort of thing. There really is more to life than straight As.</p>

<p>But back to your son. The posters above are correct. Many, many students get into top colleges without straight As. And if he goes to a not-quite top college, so what? My 10th grade daughter is smart, sweet, outgoing, loyal, interesting, a very good writer and someone who absolutely loves to read and learn about new things, but she won't be going to a tippy top school, and she won't be valedictorian. I wouldn't trade her for anyone. Love your son, let him find his strengths and his interests. </p>

<p>A sad note here. When my daughter was younger, she had a very good friend who was extremely intelligent and artistic. Her friend seemed to me to be a girl headed for the top. Over the years, the girls drifted apart. Today I found out she has been arrested for cocaine possession--at school--and her future is a wreck. Be happy with your nice kids.</p>

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<p>I also found it helpful to buy AP History prep books long before the exam time, because they summarize the material handily. In particular, I like Stephen Armstrong, "5 steps to a 5" in AP U.S. History. Reading the difference between "good" and "great" history essays really helped my S. </p>

<p>Also find out if there are any resources the teacher is offering that your S is not pursuing. I learned midway through that there were some key questions published each week by the teacher, but my S (young, immature l0th grader) didn't chase after them. When he did, his grades spiked upward in that course. This is an example of scatterheaded l0th grade boys, really. They are young.</p>

<p>To round out the picture, this S became a superior student in History and English, and never excelled in Math or Science. So perhaps your guy is the opposite: if so, accept that he might have academic strength areas. We did NOT harangue our S about his weak areas but praised his efforts in them. On the other hand, where he can be strong, do enjoy his successes. He may just be math-y.</p>

<p>And before I lose merit points for suggesting a parent talk to a h.s. teacher about why grades aren't happening, or engage in a 3-way conference...yes, yes, they should all go to High School and act like 25 year olds, but some need scaffolding for a while until they do. Ideally, a kid should ask their teacher about everything I've mentioned in my posts, but I found I had to still be in the picture during l0th grade. Not much after that re: course management, thankfully. Everyone is a little bit different. HOnestly, I had to dip back in my memory and realize I was still doing that in l0th grade to determine teacher expectations and study priorities, funneling that to my S, until he learned better how to pick up on these himself. The following year he began to take charge of himself academically with talking to teachers. He's now a college freshman, doing just fine, flourishing in his strength areas and just carrying out his weaker subject areas by satisfying requirements. I find that excellent.</p>