<p>
</p>
<p>Yes, during boom times it [can] make sense. If we were in a boom time, the discussion would probably shift from the negative attitudes of LS debt to modelz & bottlz.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>hahaha. Modelz & bottlzzzz babyyy/</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>The short answer is yes. </p>
<p>However, it is not about listing the student as a dependent. At schools that give need based financial aid, most will ask for the parents income and assets unless a student is over 27 years old (in some cases the student must be 30) or can prove that they have not given them a penny or provided anything in terms of support over the last 5 years. If the student is married, they will ask for the income assets of the student, the spouse and the student’s parents.</p>
<p>Oh, thanks, sybbie. I reread jonri’s post and it made more sense. But is this still the case for schools like YHS, Columbia, etc, in light of the recent economic downturn? That is, do these schools offer awards that are predominantly made up of grants?</p>
<p>
No, and they never have. They do offer some grants, though, which can help.</p>
<p>Okay. And does it make a difference if you’re an international student (as opposed to a domestic student)?</p>
<p>It’s a good question. Probably it does, but I don’t know.</p>
<p>OK, I’ve been keeping up with this thread, a little afraid to post because I know that what I will say will sound irresponsible to others. But what ever happened to encouraging our children to follow their passion? I’m not a lawyer - I’m a former medical technologist who changed careers to be a high school Biology teacher (lower pay). My husband is a veterinarian, who changed his career to be a college professor (lower pay). My oldest daughter is a 1L student, and tells us often that she appreciates our example of following our passion and changing careers, not staying at something for more money. Because of this, she is not afraid of making the “wrong” choice in life, because she has seen we never considered ourselves “stuck” in a job. Yes she is taking on huge debt - it will be about 180K total. She chose the school because it had specific programs and a culture that she wanted. She did a lot of research and has decided to join (and has already been accepted for OCS) the marines and be a JAG. After graduation, her loans will be consolidated and will be lower interest than they are now. After a 10 year commitment, the rest is forgiven. This will help her debt, provide her with opportunity to practice law after graduation, and since she is also studying international law and Arabic, this is something she wants to do. She has wanted to be a lawyer since high school. She competed in mock trial in high school and college. Her college team was 5th in the nation her junior year. I’ve told my children (and my students) that you spend more time at work than you do anywhere else, so it better be something you love. My husband has always preached that if you do what you love, the money will follow. Funny thing, that has always been true for us. Why would I encourage my child to do something besides what she is passionate about because it is safer? I don’t mean to sound dramatic, but honestly, what is the point in life?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>How do you think so many people wound up so deep in debt to begin with? I don’t think it’s because they weren’t adequately reassured that they should follow their “passion for law” (which is usually based on something unlike actual legal practice, like mock trial or debate club, or which is actually a passion for money), even if it means taking out huge loans to attend a terrible school.</p>
<p>^^ That’s a little cynical. Actually, mock trial isn’t like debate at all, it’s uh, like a trial, and my D has found it has given her an advantage in some of her law classes. And believe it or not some do have a passion for law, not just money. My D has always wanted to make a difference. In college, she volunteered as a rape crisis couselor, being an advocate at a local hospital when a woman was having to go through the humiliating rape kit process. She volunteered at a shelter for battered women, watching their children while they learned skills to leave their abusive husbands. She did an unpaid internship at DSS, working with the lawyers who were trying to make sure children were protected. when she wrote her personal statement for law school, she talked about wanting to be a voice for those who didn’t have one. She may follow a different path after law school, but she has always wanted to “save the world”. And I hope she never changes. There are enough cynical, negative people in the world - we could use a few more like her.</p>
<p>There are plenty of people just like her sitting in windowless basements reviewing documents for $30/hour right now, and a few wishing they could get a job that good. Again, when you decided to take out $100K+ in loans because you believe you will be a wildly successful lawyer despite what statistics, actual lawyers and common sense would tell you, it’s probably not because you’re too cynical. Though, strangely enough, a lot of those folks end up pretty cynical and negative.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>What? No it’s not. That’s like suggesting that going to a Star Trek convention is like being an astronaut.</p>
<p>Mock trial is closest to improv theater. It definitely provides skills that are applicable in law school, but it’s certainly not a good way to tell whether you’d like to be a lawyer.</p>
<p>I should also point out that Heldreth’s daughter might well be making some responsible decisions. Joining JAG, for example, strikes me as perfectly reasonable. We also don’t know what law school she’s at.</p>
<p>But Heldreth also seems to be airbrushing the point that one hundred and eighty thousand dollars is a TON of money. Giving up a little bit of salary in exchange for doing something you love is one thing. Putting yourself one hundred and eighty thousand dollars in debt just for a shot at a legal job is another cookie entirely.</p>
<p>EDIT: Heldreth’s daughter is at American University.</p>
<p>What dheldreth’s D is doing is admirable. It “sounds” like she has a legitimate, thought out plan. She’s not counting on getting a job paying $165,000. </p>
<p>That said…10 years is a LONG commitment. If she’s willing to make it, that’s terrific. However, I suspect that if you said to every 20-24 year old you can go to law school if you agree to spend 10 years in the marines afterwards, some of them might hesitate.</p>
<p>Yes, my kid is following his passion (and he knew what I did for a living, and has seen me working 7-days a week and through the nights). My concern is that he is not going to be able to find a job or earn a living wage, and his debt is “only” going to be $100,000. </p>
<p>We want our kids to be happy, to find their careers fulfilling and to have some financial security. Ideally, we’d like them to be able to afford a decent car and a home someday. We’d like them to be able to provide for our grandchildren.</p>
<p>I don’t see that the law is a career that offers many opportunities for my kid to have these things for the forseeable future. And my kid also has a lot to offer – perhaps a typical law student, but he’s very well-spoken, great work ethic, good grades in a top regional law school, skilled at networking, and a hunk (ha…of course I’m the parent and it would be odd if I said he wasn’t perfect). Maybe all of these things give DS a chance at one of those $50K a year jobs. </p>
<p>DHeldredth’s daughter is trading ten years of career development, earning and life-style growth (settling into a community, etc.) for a military career, lifestyle and wages. Her specialty will potentially be defined by JAG. Giving up 10-years of choices in the hope that it will pay off in 10-years is risky, but it sounds as if DHeldredth’s daughter is going into it with her eyes open and will do well. </p>
<p>I don’t see why students shouldn’t consider these things when following a passion, just like they should consider whether that love-of-their-life person has too much baggage to make a successful marriage. Someone might have an enormous passion for someone with a drug addiction, but that doesn’t mean that they should pursue that passion with blind eyes or thinking that the person will change for them. I think the points of the naysayers is that prospective law students (1) should think long and hard about whether they could become passionate about another path to the future; and (2) that there’s too much magical thinking by these successful undergrads (and their parents-including me) that each of them will be the exception.</p>
<p>I know I’ll get flamed for this, but…</p>
<p>dheldreth’s D may not be interested in marrying and having children. Some people are. Even some people who aren’t fall in love during law school. Once you have a significant other, the military lifstyle is less attractive. Of course, it’s easier if you manage to fall in love with someone who is also in JAG and also wants to spend 10 years in it. However, I tend to think the odds of finding a job that pays $165,000 may be higher :)! </p>
<p>And if dheldreth’s D would like to have children, she’ll have to make some difficult choices. It’s possible that she will be given an assignment on which she can’t take children. It’s even possible that if her significant other/spouse is also a JAG officer, they will be deployed simultaneously and neither will be able to take any child(ren) with them. </p>
<p>The alternative, if she does want kids, is to wait until the 10 year commitment is up to have them. That poses some problems too. Even if she is one of the lucky ones who has no problem conceiving at age 35+, being the mother of a newborn when she starts her first civilian law job will be challenging. </p>
<p>Again, I’m not trying to say the plan is impossible. It may well be that Dheldreth’s D is one of those who is certain she never wants to have children. It may be that she’s thought through all the issues. It’s not my place to give her personal advice. </p>
<p>But if I had a D who was thinking of making such a commitment, I’d make sure she had thought about such things.</p>
<p>Some interesting comments -belive me, I wasn’t excited about my Ds choices. I too was very concerned about the cost of law school, and my D joining the marines. I lost a lot of sleep over it. My husband & I both tried to talk her out of the marines (not law school), but she has researched this thoroughly, and wants to do this. I asked her again the other day if she is sure, because after this summer, it is a done deal. She says she is sure for several reasons. 1) of course the opportunity to reduce her debt and be able to practice law immediately. 2) I think she has aspirations that she may not be willing to share because others would scoff. She likes politics, and would like to work for the government, and feels that having been a JAG would be a plus. I once teased her & said “so do you want to be like HIllary and be a Secretary of State?” and she just smiled, because I think that’s exactly what she would like to do someday. 3) She said something that I wasn’t expecting. She said “mom, I think it is important to serve, to give back our country”. This is coming from a flaming liberal (which is why she is at American!). As far as having a family goes, That will be a big question mark. She is in a serious relationship with a person who will not be in the military, but supports her decision 100%. Will it work? I don’t know, but the resentment that one might feel after giving up their dream probably would kill a marriage also. </p>
<p>As far as the debt is concerned, I just have to have faith in her. That is not being delusional, that’s what I as a parent must do - believe in my child, because she has always succeeded at whatever she has tried, and never given me reason to believe she will fail. My husband and I took on more debt that she is to start a veterinary practice - and had only 5 years to be successful and pay it back or lose the practice. No one could have (or should have) convinced him to take a safer path, and it worked out. And I’m glad we didn’t have parents or others telling us we were stupid or delusional. I guess we won’t know until years down the road if it will work out for my D.</p>
<p>OK. I am going to vent a bit here. My husband and I are both attorneys and have had successful careers, but there is no way we would ever let one of our kids take on a six figure debt to go to law school. If you don’t have the credentials to get a full or substantial ride and otherwise need to take on that much debt to go to law school, just flat don’t go! Think about your life as a whole. How will you ever be able to afford a house payment if your debt service alone is over $2000 a month? If you ever have children of your own, how will you ever be able to put away enough money so that they don’t have to borrow astronomical amounts just to go to undergrad somewhere? This just seems to be setting up an entire generation of kids whose future families will be in a never ending debt spiral. It is not logical at all. Where are the adults when these kids, who have absolutely no comprehension of the anchor they are cheerfully putting around their necks, when all this is happening? It is fine to dream, but you have to wake up at some point! I loved the walking blindly into a bad marriage analogy posted above.</p>
<p>With all due respect, I’m not “letting” my child do anything. At almost 23, she is an adult. She gets get to decide. I don’t get to “not let” her do anything. We can counsel her, but she isn’t a flighty teenager. She is a focused young ADULT who is fully aware of what she is doing. So she should wake up and do what? Be an accountant, or whatever random thing you can think of so she will have no debt and make more money, but be miserable? She is fully aware of what she is doing. She, like all of us, has to set the course for her life. I have enjoyed the commments here, and found some very helpful, but I think I am done. The parents here who want to micromanage their adult children, telling them what career they can and can’t have is frightening. Am I the only one here who had the autonomy in my 20’s to choose my career without any interference or financial assistance (because they couldn’t) from my parents?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Speaking as a “child” in law school now, I suppose I should point out that while work is important, not getting to do whatever you want should hardly make you “miserable.” There are thousands upon thousands of careers out there. Anybody who has decided that they will be “miserable” without any particular one of them is probably too fixated to be thinking rationally.</p>