Is there hope for unhooked applicants at top schools? How much of a detriment is it?

There was a time that possessing curiosity, a love of learning, and inherent intelligence meant something in college admissions. Now it seems to be a detriment. Oh well. To these kids I say - forget about the rat race. Find a small LAC that gives substantial merit aid and get yourself a fantastic education.

“There was a time that possessing curiosity, a love of learning, and inherent intelligence meant something in college admissions. Now it seems to be a detriment”

Disagree

“forget about the rat race. Find a small LAC that gives substantial merit aid and get yourself a fantastic education”

Agree. Though it doesn’t have to be a LAC. There are ton of places and ways to get a great education, in fact.

To keep it blunt and to the point
very little hope. The two previous pages of responses go into more detail of the whys and hows. Unfortunately, students who have worked so very hard and maintain perfect GPAs, do community service, test well, and are respectable citizens, are not what makes a rounded class in the T20. Being full pay, a super athlete or musician or artist, or having been culled from preschool for tip top admittance (read: from wealthy families) are the “hooks” you need.

Better to set your sights on match schools and save yourself the multiple rejections (and fees). Of course, apply to your “dream school” because, hey why not? Someone has to win the lottery. But have a nice list of schools where you’ll fit in and can afford. And you know
prestige and surrounded by those who value prestige above all else, is not the healthiest spot for a student, regardless of the school reputation.

Good news, @suzyQ7 . All of those schools you list, except Tufts, are need blind now! And Tufts is almost need-blind, and likely to be soon. The list of need blind schools gets longer each year. And many of the schools who made their initial step into need blind with just domestic applicants, are now international as well.

So full-pay really is not a positive differentiator in T20 schools anymore. In fact, as a full-payer, I considered it harmful to the application! While I think it is fair and appropriate to be aware of the hardships kids face who are first gen or from disadvantaged circumstances, at need-blind schools this translates into a hurdle for full-pay students (I like to think of it as making things even). I am not complaining; I think this is how it should be, but I do think it is inaccurate to think that full-pay is beneficial at need-blind schools.

As for the waitlists not being need blind, that is unfortunate, and I hope it is corrected soon, but as to one poster’s comment that hundreds of kids get off the waitlist each year at these schools, if only that was true! If you check out the common data sets for T20 schools which show actual number accepted from waitlist each year, although there are occasional outlier years at a few schools, it is far more common to see zero to a small handful of kids accepted from waitlists.

Anyway, I just add these points as a good news story
need blind continues to spread, and really is the norm at top universities and LACs.

OP: yes, this is a tough (but not impossible) spot to be in for gaining admittance to these schools. My child is an unhooked upper middle class white girl. Amazing academics, extremely impressive leadership and ECs, etc. If this was 10 years ago, I would assume that come Thursday (Ivy day), we’d be popping (cheap) champagne. Now, I’m so grateful she has happy backup choices going into Thursday!

MWolf, thank you for your thorough analysis. I do see some questions with your numbers though. For example, at some point you assume: “There are about 25,000 kids admitted to the Ivy+ colleges every year. If only 40% are unhooked White kids, that’s still about a 50% chance for an unhooked White kid to be accepted to an Ivy+ college.”

But at the ivy leagues, typically less than 40% of the students are any type of white kids, much less unhooked! I believe Cornell is 35% white, and most others are around 42% white. With articles implying that athletes and legacies are disproproportionately white, as well as large donors, as well as of course some first gen, etc, it is likely that far more than half of all of the white students are hooked. There are not many spaces left for the unhooked.

@damon30 I think the point many of us are trying to make here is that historical data is no longer indicative of future performance. My DS’s school has excellent Naviance info from lots of applicants over the years, and it was completely unreliable this year - kids who looked like a shoe-in at schools got waitlisted, and those who seemed to have a decent chance (75th percentile) at reaches got uniformly rejected. Our school is very diverse and Naviance doesn’t list hooked vs non-hooked for applicants, so that could be part of it, but it sure seems like this year has been especially brutal for unhooked kids in the RD round.

@NEPatsGirl Love this: " And you know
prestige and surrounded by those who value prestige above all else, is not the healthiest spot for a student, regardless of the school reputation."

@EmptyNestSoon2, Well, hundreds don’t get in off the WL at the elite privates (though they do at Case Western), and from the following link, over a hundred got in off the WL at Oberlin, Wesleyan, Princeton(!), and Macalester. Close to a hundred at Duke and Brown. And remember that LACs tend to be small, with an entering class in the hundreds.

https://www.college-kickstart.com/blog/item/class-of-2022-waitlist-notification-dates-and-stats

As for the WL being need-blind, maybe some day at the very richest schools. Everyone else will have to keep their percentage of full-pays at an acceptably high level, and the easiest way to do that while still being able to say you’re need-blind is by not being need-blind for the WL.

@Trixy34 I do think curiosity and a love of learning still make a student stand out. The thing is, though, that it has to show on the app. S19’s recommendations have been called out on almost every acceptance letter as making a difference. Maybe having a strong transcript and ECs don’t really show curiosity. I’m guessing it has to come through either the student’s essay or the recs. I know S19’s recs spoke to his intellectual curiosity and his leadership in class because that’s what those teachers told me in teacher conferences.

To me, S19 is one of those average excellent students from a boring big city suburb, three season athlete, artist 
but I think the thing that put him over the top were his recs and his essays. On every single acceptance letter he’s received, the signer hand wrote a note out to the side saying they loved his essay. I think people may be surprised that his essay was liked so much because it’s just a story about the diner where he and his friends hang out. It shows how he values friendship and community but never comes out and says it - the story shows it. He didn’t show how he overcame anything, he didn’t brag about one of his ECs, he didn’t talk about what he learned from something. He just flat out wrote a story about eating lunch at the diner. I think it resonated with the readers because it showed he’s a self-aware and reflective kind of kid who is thankful for the supportive surroundings he grew up in. It was authentic.

So, maybe for the unhooked student, every piece of the app has to speak to the readers.

True, as far as it goes. Also, a future “demographic cliff” may make previous years admissions data overly pessimistic: https://www.insidehighered.com/admissions/article/2018/01/08/new-book-argues-most-colleges-are-about-face-significant-decline

But the reason Naviance scattergrams are the answer to the OP’s question is because the actual question about “hooks” is a red herring. If you want to know your real chance if getting into a highly selective institution as an unhooked applicant, look at the Naviance scattergram of applicants from your HS, assume that the stats of those in the lower left have some kind of hook, and maybe add an additional “competitiveness” factor and that’s your answer. Repeat the process until you have your list of reach, match and safety schools.

“Is there hope for unhooked applicants at top schools?”

I think we are over analyzing and complicating what should be a simple answer to the OP’s simple question. Yes there is hope.

We can debate size and scope of that window of opportunity, apply “junk” math to handicap it, try and extrapolate causal relationships, bemoan the ever changing landscape or cast shade on URMs, athletes, legacies, first gen, people from Alaska, full pay or the poor for taking “all” of those spots the unhooked over achiever is entitled to. Sorry but once all said and done I arrive at the same conclusion. Students ultimately do have a degree of control over their outcomes (yes there is also a degree of luck involved) even when “suffering” from being unhooked.

There is a path and consequently hope for the unhooked at top 20s. The unhooked class is not a group of victims with no ability to influence their odds of success. They just have to find a way to stand out amongst the other amazing unhooked candidates.

@Nocreativity1, well, yes, there is hope . . . for a HS freshman (or younger), who has a decent amount of control over their future.

For a HS senior, he/she would already know, mostly likely, if they have some amazing EC’s and/or is a standout academically not just at their local school but on a national or at least state level.

By application time, the biggest control an unhooked applicant has is over where to apply and when.

^agreed. I was responding per the OPs request below that thread be directed towards those who are looking ahead.

“my hope is that a future unhooked applicant reading this thread will shift their high school priorities.”

@nocreativity1 “Students ultimately do have a degree of control over their outcomes (yes there is also a degree of luck involved) even when “suffering” from being unhooked.” “They just have to find a way to stand out amongst the other amazing unhooked candidates.”

I think some of us are trying to say that the costs of trying to stand out outweigh the benefits. For those of us who don’t want our kids spending four years trying to build a resume that impresses Ivy Admissions Officers, the admissions hope at top 20’s is small indeed. And as long as I know that going in, I am ok with it. Publics and 30-200 privates, here they come!

I’m never sure why students focus on school ranking over the department of their major. If the college search focuses on a list of major specific requirements (curriculum, labs, electives, concentrations, outcomes, teaching style, collaborative verses competitive) and preferred region and rural/city life, the student’s list would not likely consist of T20 schools because guess what, the majority of T20 schools are not likely to be a good fit. # 2 and # 3 choices were not top 10.

HS should be about finding your passion and walk across the stage at graduation feeling that you explored your interests and left it a better place (guidance counselor advice to our children). Unfortunately, as an unhooked student you likely need 99+ % stats on standardized tests and almost perfect grades. I imagine the potential of full pay helps, don’t really believe the process is completely need blind with zip code and parent job titles.

Our experience is yes, non-hooked students get admitted, but use your ED card where you truly see a fit and you find many similarities with current students. You are similar, not just aspire to be like them.

Yes! A hundred times yes!

And certainly the list wouldn’t contain all the Ivies.

@Nocreativity1 - yes, there is hope. There is always a tiny sliver hope, but I don’t think it helps to sugarcoat reality. It certainly doesn’t do any good for kids of limited means who are trying to decide where to spend money on application fees. They could end up like my son’s girlfriend - with only one option that is well below what she is deserving of. Let’s be real with people - it’s tough out there. Be very careful about where you apply - limit your reaches and focus on safeties. If you need financial aid, you have to be even smarter about where you apply, especially if you’re not a URM.

@KLSD - Not all kids have a major planned before they apply to school. My kid has been so busy with school work and his ECs, he hasn’t had time to read for pleasure (which used to be his favorite past-time) in the past 4 years, much less had time to “explore his interests.” For some people, that’s what college is for.

I agree with @RockySoil and @Trixy34.

BTW, @KLSD, many HS seniors are still undecided on majors, goals, etc.

But nothing says a gap year can’t be taken, and in any case, there are a lot of opportunities outside the top 20.

There is hope, but I think it is getting much, much harder out there. I have two kids in a school in the 15-20 range. They are unhooked, high stats, well-rounded (not spiky) kids, normal ECs, no super-impressive awards. So there is some hope. But they knew going in that they were long shots, so we were very careful about building a list that included a true safety where they would be happy to attend. And I definitely discouraged any “dream school” thinking.

@KLSD That works if your child knows what they want to major in at 17 or 18 but not all kids do. High school is comprised of the most basic subjects and many of the classes are dictated rather than selected. I think it would be wonderful if HS allowed more academic and intellectual investigation but probably 80-90% of all applicants have taken the same classes especially in the AP universe.

@RockySoil and @Trixy34

I actually agree with both of you. Kids should be aware of how challenging it is to get into a top20 and that the system isnt entirely fair or efficient. My point is they shouldn’t give up that aspiration if it motivates them. They can influence their outcomes, but more importantly hard work, academic rigor, community service etc are all redeeming in their own right.

I have frequently posted that I don’t think admissions to a specific cohort of schools should be what drives a students activities or behaviors. The journey is what matterss.

But again to the OPs titled qiestion I believe that yes there is hope.