Is there really any benefit to starting out at a four year university?

College Search & Selection
1

<p>I'd understand if you're economically disadvantaged/really rich and manage to get into a prestigious four year university, but for the average high school applicant looking to go to college, is there really any advantage or benefit to going straight to a university? </p>

<p>The only touted benefits most people can come up with are that a university provides you with the "full college experience", research opportunities, and an overall better image over attending a community college. Of course I can't speak for all universities, but for the one's I have looked into, a community college can prepare me just as well, if not better, than my state's public universities. I turned down acceptances from UCONN, Hofstra, Chapman, UCSB, and UCSD in order to attend Irvine Valley College over the fall.</p>

<p>What really attracted me to the community college setting is the fact that it costs a lot less, and will also be a lot less crowded than public four year universities. I also don't value the notion that everyone will enjoy the "full college experience"-I believe that it has become an overrated myth that discourages many students from even considering community college because it make them feel like they are somehow above CCs. Education wise, the general consensus seems to be that community college professors are more dedicated to their students because they don't have the responsibility of conducting research, which leads to an overall more nurturing environment (like private universities, but at a fraction of the cost).</p>

<p>At a public four year, I've heard horror stories of how lecture halls where general education courses are being taught are stuffed with three, sometimes four hundred students, which leads to significantly less time to contact or even get to know your professor (even worse if they conduct research). And as far as research opportunities go, they really aren't hard to find in my case since I will be a part of the honors program, which can also set me up with professors at UCI. </p>

<p>So if all of the necessary classes can essentially be taken at a community college, where you will save a TON of money, have smaller class sizes, and be better prepared overall than those who went straight to a four year (studies have shown that community college transfers tend to maintain a higher GPA than those who started at a four year), then what advantages can attending a four year possibly have over a community college besides the trivial "full college experience"? Not even applying for grad school is a concern, since universities really don't look into where you went all four years, just that you have the grades, test scores, and the experience needed.
Any input would be greatly appreciated, thanks. </p>

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<p>Students with strong high school records may get large merit scholarships that may not be available to transfers:
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/discussion/comment/16451378/#Comment_16451378”>Automatic Full Tuition / Full Ride Scholarships - #300 by BobWallace - Financial Aid and Scholarships - College Confidential Forums;
<a href=“Competitive Full Tuition / Full Ride Scholarships - #50 by BobWallace - Financial Aid and Scholarships - College Confidential Forums”>Competitive Full Tuition / Full Ride Scholarships - #50 by BobWallace - Financial Aid and Scholarships - College Confidential Forums;

<p>Students with strong high school records may find the selection of four year schools willing to admit them as frosh to be larger than those willing to admit them as transfers. But students with weak high school records may find the opposite if they produce a strong record at community college.</p>

<p>Students who are advanced in some subjects (most commonly math) may find that being at a four year college from the start allows taking upper division courses in the first two years, an option not available at community colleges.</p>

<p>Students in majors where the needed lower division courses are not available at community colleges would need to take a lot of “catch up” courses after transfer, possibly delaying graduation or making for difficult schedules after transfer.</p>

<p>Some community colleges suffered cutbacks in course offerings during the economic downturn, which resulted in more difficulty getting into classes than at four year schools that limited student intake in their admissions processes. This is less of a problem now than in the depths of the state budget problems brought about by the economic downturn.</p>

<p>Of course, the above factors do not apply to all students, so many students will find starting at community college advantageous. One of the non-cost-related advantages is that a student who is very undecided on his/her major can sample lots of subjects at community college without having to be “on the clock” to decide and declare a major as much as s/he has to be at a four year school.</p>

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<p>All that @ucbalumnus said + connections. The longer you’re at the 4-year u, the more people you meet -friends that you might otherwise never met, professors who’ll write better LORs cause they’ve been hearing about you from other profs for years, random acquaintances who could easily be your future employer, etc. </p>

<p>However, it truly is a personal decision, and finances are important. You don’t wanna go into too much debt if you can’t afford it, so community college is a wiser option for many.</p>

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<p>It is easier to build up a circle of friends when you are a freshman and your peers are in the same boat, knowing few if any people. 2 years later it can be hard to break into established circles of friends, especially for those that are not that outgoing. Time is also compressed. If you think of college as just a list of classes, take them and move on, then perhaps it might matter less where you happen to be taking them. But if you value getting to know some profs, taking part in the life of the campus, perhaps participating in research, all of this takes time. As a junior you have a much shorter timeframe at your new school to do these things, and just as you may have been really settled in and comfortable at your old school you leave it.

You seem quite selective in what you notice, good things from CC’s and bad things from 4-year colleges. Something called the “confirmation bias” which you will learn about when you take Psych 1. No thought about kids at CC’s that spend an extra year there because they were shut out of classes they need to transfer? How about the students around you. Do you think it is possible that classes are taught to the level of the students taking them?

But unlike you, I don’t try to look for universal rules that apply to " the average high school applicant looking to go to college". Rather I encourage each to weigh the positives and negatives of their options and make the choice that is right for them. Sounds like you’ve made it for you. Might it be insecurity that leads you to think all other kids should follow your reasoning? Or perhaps a sense of superiority, that you can figure things out that they can’t?</p>

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<p>Yes to what others have said–
multiple scholarships that are only available to incoming freshmen.
specialty honors program which is only available to incoming freshmen.<br>
CCs only offer lower level classes. Advanced students will not have enough course offerings
Knowing professors leads to research opportunities, etc. Those don’t exist on CC campuses.</p>

<p>Fwiw, none of my kids have felt like their professors on 4 yr university campuses didn’t care. My kids have all gotten to know their professors, have been offered great internships, etc with their professors, have received excellent letters of recommendation, etc.</p>

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<p>Statistically, students who start at community college take longer on average to graduate than students who start at 4-yr schools. The numbers are hard to directly correlate since so many CC students are part-time. But it makes sense that even those who attend full-time and intend to transfer after 2-yrs are likely to need more than 2 years at the 4-yr school, since classes won’t necessarily directly align between the schools, and it is probably hard to take very many classes in the major at the CC. </p>

<p>Still, CC makes sense for many students. You’ve made your decision, so no sense second guessing it. Work hard and do well at your CC and you should have good opportunities to transfer to a 4-yr college.</p>

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<p>Expanding on the above post, for some students, simply being surrounded by other 4-year students makes it more likely they will continue on and take their studies seriously. Some kids who are surrounded by other students at CCs who are just looking for certificates, don’t have anything better to do, and don’t take their classes seriously can find themselves sucked into a downward academic spiral by their peers. California CCs may be different, since there are tons of people on the four year track, but around here, the CCs have a reputation of just being an extension of HS.</p>

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<p>@Ucbalumnus You made some fair points, but how prevalent are these circumstances? I would categorize them along with the economically disadvantaged/really rich exceptions since I’ve never really come across these kinds of people amidst the many more that could’ve been better served at a community college. I can however, be wrong about how often this happens, I’m just curious. And thanks for your input. </p>

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<p>All good points above, and all of them factored into my sons’ decisions to go to four year schools. Adding to that, both of my sons were on NCAA athletic teams and wanted the experience of being part of the team all four years. OP, attending a CC can be a good move for you, especially if none of the things noted here mattered to you. Be sure to take classes that will transfer when you make your move to a university later. Your CC counselor can help keep you on track so there are no surprises.</p>

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<p>@mikemac I found your post comical, yet sad because you failed to provide some objective information without having to resort to passing unfair judgment onto someone you don’t even know well enough to criticize. I will say however that the first paragraph of your post was fair, but not entirely what I was asking, since I am completely disinterested in forming relationships over a four year course (I’m comfortable enough to make new friends anytime and anywhere I go). </p>

<p>“You seem quite selective in what you notice, good things from CC’s and bad things from 4-year colleges. Something called the “confirmation bias” which you will learn about when you take Psych 1. No thought about kids at CC’s that spend an extra year there because they were shut out of classes they need to transfer? How about the students around you. Do you think it is possible that classes are taught to the level of the students taking them?”</p>

<p>Did you even read the title of this discussion? Of course I’m going to have a bias in favor of community colleges. If I knew what all the benefits and drawbacks of attending a 4 year vs. a 2 year were, why would I bother posting this discussion in the first place?
No, none of those two thoughts occurred to me, but at least ucbalumnus was courteous enough to point these thoughts out without sounding condescending. Rather embarrassing for a Senior Member of College Confidential who has had close to seven thousand posts in my opinion. </p>

<p>“But unlike you, I don’t try to look for universal rules that apply to " the average high school applicant looking to go to college”. Rather I encourage each to weigh the positives and negatives of their options and make the choice that is right for them. Sounds like you’ve made it for you. Might it be insecurity that leads you to think all other kids should follow your reasoning? Or perhaps a sense of superiority, that you can figure things out that they can’t?"</p>

<p>As a matter of fact no, I don’t believe I’m some sort of big shot for declining my offers from several universities in favor of IVC, I’ve just been having a hard time understanding why so many people look down upon an equally enriching opportunity such as attending community college. I never said I was against anyone that chose to go down the four year route, I just don’t fully understand why they choose that route and I genuinely wanted to hear what people have to say.<br>
By the way, where do you get off directing a personal attack on my sense of character? Besides not having a valid motive to do so, you do not know me well enough to ask me such ignorant questions.
If you have any valid, objective input to offer without having to resort to such nonsense, then by all means share what you have to say. Otherwise, please keep from embarrassing yourself. </p>

<p>To everyone else that was nice enough to offer their two cents, thank you very much. </p>

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<pre><code> A community college is just what it is…“COMMUNITY EDUCATION CENTER”. It is affordable, welcomes just almost all, and may or may not offer quality education, due to limited resources and funding. It is not comparable in any form. A four year college will always in a general and overall perspective present a better experience and benefit than a community college.

If you really want to dissect this data for your selves, check the reasons why student’s attend community colleges… majority are attending due to fiances, a few others attend due to family situations, like marriage, kids, job etc, then there are students who go there because they prefer the trade/craft programs that only required 2 years and that only how far they want to go. Unfortunately, our society ranks and will continue to rank community college students less than 4 year colleges and universities.

If money is not an issue, you could have applied to liberal arts colleges, where small class sizes are guaranteed.
</code></pre>

<p>Best of luck to you.</p>

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<p>The first three are probably most common among the students with realistic chances of frosh admission to UCB/UCLA/UCSD and comparably or more selective schools, with the frequency declining as one goes down the selectivity scale of four year schools.</p>

<p>Lack of courses that articulate to lower division courses for one’s major appears to be more common in California for engineering and CS majors at UCs and CSUs, due to major-specific courses that vary between campuses (see <a href=“http://www.assist.org”>http://www.assist.org</a> ). More common majors like economics, biology, psychology, business, etc. tend to have more readily available course coverage at California community colleges.</p>

<p>The shortage of space in community college courses got a lot of complaints during the economic downturn, when the state budget had to be cut due to lower tax revenue coming in. The complaints do not seem to be as much now.</p>

<p>It is also worth noting that California state higher education policy gives community colleges an important place in bachelor’s degree education, in being a starting place for various student for whom starting as a frosh at a four year school is not a good option (those looking for lower cost and do not qualify for the better scholarships and financial aid at four year schools, poor high school record, non-traditional students with work and family obligations, etc.), and with good offerings to cover lower division work for many common majors. In some other states, community colleges are not as well suited for transfer preparation in terms of course offerings, which can be a problem for students in situations where starting at a community college is a better option.</p>

<p>Starting at community college is a great option to have available, but is not necessarily the best academic fit for all students.</p>

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<p>Our relative greatly benefitted from starting at CC, where she thrived for 3 semesters and then transferred to competitive private U. She was not a candidate for merit aid and saved us money and enjoyed the small class sizes, free parking, very cheap tuition, small class sizes of CC. There was no question in her or our mind that she’d get her BA, which she did. </p>

<p>For her, it was a good path and she enjoyed exploring more at CC than she may have otherwise. As an extra bonus, the CC had free parking, was very close to our home and had awesome food (cooked by the culinary students). It also let her have a wide variety of classmates of different ages and stages of life. No regrets here. </p>

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<p>The overwhelming majority of CC professors are adjuncts who simply cannot afford to care about their students because they’re teaching at 3+ colleges for poverty level wages in a high cost of living area. </p>

<p>The UCI professors I worked for sourced their UG employees from their top students. I only got the job because they’d known me for years. Frankly they would never hire an unknown community college student. I also wonder if they would have been allowed to given that many universities restrict on campus jobs, including research positions, to current students. </p>

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<p>

A few posts later he writes

Most people prefer the “ready, aim, fire” approach and try to understand the pluses and minuses of their choice before they make it. You apparently prefer “ready, fire, aim”, but whatever floats your boat…</p>

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<p>It depends on whether you see education as “Go to class/absorb information/pass” or if you see if as more. Community College IN CALIFORNIA is integrated into the state university system with similar 1st year classes and transfer paths planned, so it’s a good alternative to a CSU or can even be an alternative to a UC if you can’t pay to go away. There are different levels, since attending DeAnza and College of the Siskiyous doesn’t lead to the same typical outcome.
I don’t think it’s the ideal environment for a high-achieving student but it’s a good alternative to have if need be.
The CA situation should not be extrapolated into a situation that applies to all community colleges since in some states community colleges offer mostly vocational and remedial instruction.
Two obvious drawbacks are peer environment (won’t push you to challenge yourself) leading to less depth in material covered and less thorough coverage in class depending on subjects but especially for non STEM classes; time to graduate (since everyone can register, classes tend to be full quickly. The vast majority of community college students need more than 4 semesters to cover their prereq classes and many will never be able to transfer. Although this is counterintuitive, research shows the best guarantee of success for lower-income or first generation students actually resides in their choice of attending the most selective college they got into.)
Many California students who chose community college with a goal in mind find them an excellent solution, if only because it saves them money.
Can you explain your rationale for making such a choice?</p>

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<p>The main drawback in attending a California community college is that the student must take it upon themselves from the beginning to learn about the numerous options available to them, wisely select colleges they wish to transfer to, and take classes that will transfer over. There are numerous options for transferring - TAG, TAP, Honors-to-Honors transfer agreements, and transfer agreements. (So the main benefit of starting out at a 4-year university is that you only have to concern yourself about completing your general eds and major requirements at that one university).</p>

<p>For you, attending IVC, I would strongly recommend joining the schools Honors Program. You will have lots of perks associated with the program, including priority registration, research opportunities, field trips (social opportunities as well) and special counseling events pertaining to your major and academic plans. You will find guidance through that program which will benefit you in your class selection as well as transfer plans.</p>

<p>My daughter’s friends at CC include those who were accepted to UC Berkeley, UC Davis, UCLA, UCI, UCSB, Northeastern, Boston U, U Washington, and NYU, but decided to attend CC due to the lower cost. All are middle class families who have high EFC’s. Most are in the Honors Program, and most are planning to TAG one UC, apply to other UC’s, a couple of CSU’s, and one or two privates. </p>