Thanks everyone! This was helpful and I appreciate it.
@Mezzo’sMama :
I thought counter tenors (I said contra tenors, that was my bad) are the guys who can sing up into the range a female soprano can sing, a baritone would be much deeper than that, no? I saw a program on this one countertenor, he was a big guy, African American, looking at him you wouldn’t believe how high or beautifully he sang
@musicprnt- Don’t worry, I understood you! Nope, counter tenors vocal range is closer to that of the mezzo soprano and contralto (G3 to D5). Most counter tenors are indeed natural baritones but they almost never use their “natural” singing voice.
@mezzo’smama:
Ah, that makes sense, so they can sing up to a mezzo range but their natural voice is deeper. I remember seeing a video of the singer I was talking about, the guy was the size of an NFL lineman, and the video I think was at one of the Washington metro stations, you should have seen people’s reactions lol. When my son was at Juilliard pre college one of the young men in the voice program was a countertenor, had a very sweet voice (though my son said he was even more of a diva than the girls in the program…!). It surprises me there is much of a need for countertenors, handel used to love using them I know, but I thought after the Baroque period they pretty much disappeared from opera and other voice works.
The bottom line is, yes, merit aid is offered at most schools and it is unpredictable as to how much and who they offer it to. So, it’s worth applying and waiting to see what is offered!
Thanks again. Does anyone know if you have to submit the FAFSA form to get merit aid? It looks like you do for some schools.
@beaglemom it does seem to vary by school, so you need to check each school’s requirements.
Question as you all seem very knowledgeable…My daughter is a NJ All-State Hornist who made NYO-USA last year, but only wants to minor in music at best, and wants a college with a rich music culture where she can participate in an orchestra, but pursue a degree in molecular biology. (If it matters, she is an URM, 1/287 class rank, 31 ACT and also made it into a competitive outreach program where she studied Genetic Engineering at MIT). Are there any colleges you recommend given her interests?
A lot of the top colleges, while they don’t offer performance degrees, have strong music programs.The Ivy league schools have strong orchestral and chamber programs, and many of them pay for lessons as part of your tuition (friend of my son’s was a hornist, went to Princeton, they paid for lessons with his teacher he studied with at Juilliard pre college). Columbia has an exchange program with Juilliard (not the joint program, though that would be an option) where your D could take lessons at Juilliard with a teacher but get her degree from Columbia. The Ivies and other top level schools look for kids who are musical, pre college programs like Juilliard’s are full of kids who end up at the top schools.
Obviously, there are plenty of other schools that have great programs for non majors. One thing to be aware of is school with schools of music, that offer a BM degree, may not be that strong for a non major. Often non majors take lessons with grad students, and the performance program for non majors may not be that great, many of them don’t allow non majors to play in the program in the music school (obviously, some may, it is important to check with each school).
The other thing to keep in mind is musical things outside the school. For example, if she went to school in NYC (let’s say Columbia or NYU), or even went to something in a near state, your D could potentially get into the New York Youth Symphony, which is a very, very high level program, they go to 22 and a lot of kids belong who aren’t music majors IME, and there are similar programs elsewhere.
If it were my D, I would recommend putting together a list of programs she might be interested in going to, given her interests, then ask questions about specific programs and their music program (also worthwhile asking the school as well).
@Ceciliaagnes I agree with @musicprnt above - he said many of the things I was thinking. This question comes up every year so there are many threads about it. Here’s what I posted earlier in the year when someone asked about the ‘best’ college orchestras - which took the thread off topic a bit:
See this thread: http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/1830570-searching-for-colleges-with-a-strong-orchestra-programs-open-to-non-majors-p1.html:
This question comes up every few months on the Music Major Forum - there are threads addressing it going back to the beginning of College Confidential! You can often check out youtube videos of college orchestras to get a feel. It is not unusual at all for a college orchestra not to be at the high level of a regional youth orchestra. On the other hand, regional youth orchestras, and sometimes community orchestras, usually accept college students as performers - something to keep in mind for schools where its own orchestra is not up to snuff.
(From a quick google search)
http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/444579-strong-orchestras-at-liberal-arts-schools-p1.html
http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/1748416-what-colleges-have-good-music-orchestra-programs.html
http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/1727619-music-for-non-music-major-at-merit-aid-liberal-arts-college-p1.html
http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/984536-orchestra-seats-for-non-majors-clarinet.html
http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/634244-college-orchestras-p1.html
http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-search-selection/1621956-universities-with-strong-orchestras-even-if-non-music-major.html
Thank you both. She has looked at some of the dual degree programs like Columbia/Juilliard, but doesn’t really feel the need for a music degree and wants her ficus to be on her studies with music performance being her “fun”. We didn’t realize they would pay for lessons though, so we will look more at those colleges. UPENN flew her down for their Penn Early Explorers Program, so it looks like her chances of bring accepted there are extremely good, but she didn’t a good feel of their music department while there.
@Ceciliaagnes - My D is a dual degree hornist in performance and biomedical engineering, who also considered going the music minor route. Given that the horn studio at many universities isn’t that large, I’d have your D contact the horn profs directly at schools where she has serious interest. Two areas to explore are the support the prof has for these students (open to audition, private lessons of non-majors, letting her join horn studio, participation in higher level orchestras, etc.) and the practicality of it (labs and orchestra often conflict). It would be great if she can talk to students at the university who are actually doing what she hopes to do. For example, when her horn prof has a visit with any student who professes interest in a dual degree, he asks my D to meet with them as well. There is also currently a music minor hornist who can talk to them. FYI, the music minor is in the horn studio (goes to their weekly ensemble classes), plays in band/orchestra in any given semester as his schedule and auditions permit (they sometimes need horn majors to play in two large ensembles, so it actually is a win/win if there is a horn minor capable of helping), and takes lessons with a mix of grad students/prof. Hope this helps! Good luck to your D as she wades through her options!
Wow, excellent advice! I will definitely pass it on to her! Is it too assuming if she reaches out to the horn professor at UPENN, or should she wait until decisions are made? And are there any colleges we may be overlooking that she should definitely consider?
@Ceciliaagnes - My D reached out to the horn profs before she visited schools in her junior year, as she was also hoping to take sample lessons in anticipation of possible dual degree. In your D’s case, I don’t think it’s too early. My D just looked them up on college websites and sent brief emails of introduction/questions. I think all but one prof responded quickly. Have your daughter succinctly summarize her music accomplishments (can offer to supply more info if needed), express her interest, and ask a few specific, initial questions (such as… have you had any recent horn students minoring in music? Is it possible for me to play with the orchestra/other horn students if I’m not a horn major?..).
As to schools, what are your D’s preferences in terms of size, location, etc.? Is she only looking at highly selective ones? Johns Hopkins, Case Western and CMU might be possibilities for her. In any case, make sure she has some academic safeties that also have satisfactory music programs. While my D got academic merit at several selective schools, she got rejected from one (for the engr program) despite 4.0, 35 ACT, legacy, etc.
Feel free to PM me if you want more detailed information on any of the above.
She prefers a large school on an urban campus. JH and CMU are on her list, and I’m having her check out Case Western. She made it into the summer outreach at MIT last summer where she spent a week and was surprised about their opportunities for music and, being more than half of the kids who made it into the program matriculate there, she will apply there as well. I guess what we need is more safety options; her only one now is Rutgers SEBS, where she likes the Biomedical Research opportunities, but not the Music Performance opportunities.
Could look at Emory U: they offer music merit aid on top of need/based aid; the music dept. has lots of double majors (BA program.) The orchestra is quite good, accepts up to 25% non music majors and gives scholarships for lessons. Some of the faculty are Atlanta Symphony members.
Hi. As OP, I thought I might post what I learned. The answer is yes, there is merit aid available for music students separate from financial aid. Here are a few outcomes (all merit with no request for FA) from the process for S that I am posting in the hopes it might help others as they go through this process. In addition, S was accepted into Honors/Scholars programs at all schools that had them based on grades/scores.
- One school provided a combination of academic and music merit aid to meet full tuition.
- One school provided music merit to meet full tuition.
- One school provided music merit, but not academic merit because all merit comes from music school.
- One school provided music merit, but not academic even though music students can get academic merit. This was a bit puzzling b/c S's scores and gpa were higher (in some cases by a lot) than non-music students who got academic merit aid.
Anyway, trying to close the circle on my posted questions.
as people have said, it depends on the school, and also how much they want the student. A school that is less competitive who has a top level student applying may give a lot more merit aid than they otherwise would based on family income because they want the person there; on the other hand a very top level program may tie all merit aid to need, based on the idea that everyone in the program is pretty top notch (Juilliard outright says this on their website, they have a financial aid person in a video explaining it). Some schools don’t do this, Rice seems to give merit aid without necessarily looking at family income (and I am sure it depends, too). Lot of it also depends on how much money the school has for aid and merit money, some schools have a lot more. My S with grad school ran into a program that was less competitive then the top level, a teacher there recruited him, school sent a note saying how much they wanted him, and yet the merit money was to be honest disappointing given the level of programs he had gotten into and the money they were giving (the teacher knew about this, as did the school, they were very late in coming back with the Merit awards, it was well after the other programs), I suspect it was because the school lowballed because money is tight (my S was pretty angry, had he known the teacher was basically clueless, he wouldn’t have bothered taking the time and money to fly there knowing the money would be tied to family income, despite being de facto told he could get at least full tuition to be competitive with other programs).
The other thing is how much, a lot of schools will seemingly automatically give merit aid, but it may be pretty much a small token, a couple of thousand in a school that is in the upper 40’s with tuition.
Was your need less than full tuition?
@ClarinetDad16 We did only merit. We did not ask for any FA.
Of the four schools mentioned, two are less competitive and two are highly competitive, top-tier schools. Those two gave substantial merit aid, just not full tuition. So, I agree with musicpmt, it does depend on the tier level, but to just answer my original post, I was pleasantly surprised with the merit aid. We expected no aid going into this process.